Eventing Nation booted from covering Event in Unionville, PA

I hope they read him too.

But… so far… many folks just want to criticize my posts as too long to bother reading, and point out that my sentence structure is sloppy (it is… it’s just the COTH forums).

Others immediately look at the longer list of names from the OP, and declare that Candace Owens is stupid.

My posts are too long. There is plenty to criticize about Candace Owens.

But when Candace Owens is the only name someone immediately recognized in the original list, it tells me something about them… and how well read… or actually not so well read… they are.

So for those of you whose reading is limited to “White Fragility” … who now seem to think you are smart enough to hop onto to this thread, and lecture other folks who have actually read Thomas Sowell for the better part of 20 years? Before it was fashionable or hip to do so?

Please understand… some of us are trying to broaden your horizons. If you choose to stubbornly avoid absorbing any information from well respected black scholars that PERHAPS doesn’t confirm your pre-existing biases…

Well… that’s your choice. But it’s hardly the sign of a curious, intellectual and tolerant mind.

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:yes:

I have only scratched the surface and wow he really makes you think! What I especially love is the brutal honesty. Thanks to your post I have a few more names to add to the list :slight_smile:

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Oh! I have one more important name to add to the list of writers that folks following this thread should read.

ESPECIALLY all the folks who have recommended others read “White Fragility.”

You all should read John McWhorter.

Who is he? John McWhorter is a contributing writer at The Atlantic. He teaches linguistics at Columbia University, hosts the podcast Lexicon Valley, and is the author, most recently, of Words on the Move.

John McWhorter is also black.

In July of 2020, he wrote a book review for The Atlantic that ran in their Ideas section…

”The Dehumanizing Condescension of White Fragility”

It’s a pretty relevant an interesting book review. I hope some of you who are fans of this book (it’s pretty clear Leslie Wylie recently read it… her editorial about Plantation Field has several elements in it that are straight from the ideas espoused in that book)… well… I hope some of you take the time to read what a black, liberal, linguistics professor who teaches at Columbia thinks about Robin DiAngelo’s book.

I copied and pasted a few portions of his review for everyone to ponder…

”White Fragility was published in 2018 but jumped to the top of the New York Times best-seller list amid the protests following the death of George Floyd and the ensuing national reckoning about racism. DiAngelo has convinced university administrators, corporate human-resources offices, and no small part of the reading public that white Americans must embark on a self-critical project of looking inward to examine and work against racist biases that many have barely known they had.

I am not convinced. Rather, I have learned that one of America’s favorite advice books of the moment is actually a racist tract. Despite the sincere intentions of its author, the book diminishes Black people in the name of dignifying us. This is unintentional, of course, like the racism DiAngelo sees in all whites. Still, the book is pernicious because of the authority that its author has been granted over the way innocent readers think.”

“When writers who are this sure of their convictions turn out to make a compelling case, it is genuinely exciting. This is sadly not one of those times, even though white guilt and politesse have apparently distracted many readers from the book’s numerous obvious flaws.

For one, DiAngelo’s book is replete with claims that are either plain wrong or bizarrely disconnected from reality. Exactly who comes away from the saga of Jackie Robinson thinking he was the first Black baseball player good enough to compete with whites? “Imagine if instead the story,” DiAngelo writes, “went something like this: ‘Jackie Robinson, the first black man whites allowed to play major-league baseball.’” But no one need imagine this scenario, as others have pointed out, because it is something every baseball fan already knows. Later in the book, DiAngelo insinuates that, when white women cry upon being called racists, Black people are reminded of white women crying as they lied about being raped by Black men eons ago. But how would she know? Where is the evidence for this presumptuous claim?”

”DiAngelo also writes as if certain shibboleths of the Black left—for instance, that all disparities between white and Black people are due to racism of some kind—represent the incontestable truth. This ideological bias is hardly unique to DiAngelo, and a reader could look past it, along with the other lapses in argumentation I have noted, if she offered some kind of higher wisdom. The problem is that White Fragility is the prayer book for what can only be described as a cult.

We must consider what is required to pass muster as a non-fragile white person. Refer to a “bad neighborhood,” and you’re using code for Black; call it a “Black neighborhood,” and you’re a racist; by DiAngelo’s logic, you are not to describe such neighborhoods at all, even in your own head. You must not ask Black people about their experiences and feelings, because it isn’t their responsibility to educate you. Instead, you must consult books and websites. Never mind that upon doing this you will be accused of holding actual Black people at a remove, reading the wrong sources, or drawing the wrong lessons from them. You must never cry in Black people’s presence as you explore racism, not even in sympathy, because then all the attention goes to you instead of Black people. If you object to any of the “feedback” that DiAngelo offers you about your racism, you are engaging in a type of bullying “whose function is to obscure racism, protect white dominance, and regain white equilibrium.”

That is a pretty strong charge to make against people who, according to DiAngelo, don’t even conceive of their own whiteness. But if you are white, make no mistake: You will never succeed in the “work” she demands of you. It is lifelong, and you will die a racist just as you will die a sinner.

Remember also that you are not to express yourself except to say Amen.”

Soooo… any of you who are fans of “White Fragility” have anything to say about McWhorter’s take on the popular book? He’s not exactly a Candace Owens type intellectual…

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McWorter has also contributed to the Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/07/11/theres-a-reason-black-americans-say-racism-persists-the-cops/

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@MorganSercu - thanks for linking that WP piece ge wrote.

That was REALLY thought provoking and well laid out by McWhorter.

I’m definitely going to follow him more closely going forward. He’s got a really interesting perspective on some of these issues, and is not engaging in political flame throwing when making his arguments. How refreshing.

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In other news…

folks on social media are accusing The Horse of Delaware Valley of “defamation” because of some of the “Letters to the Editor” they have published.

I think we have now moved on from struggling with the many definitions of the word “plantation” to struggling with the legal definition of defamation.

here is a common legal definition of defamation:

n. the act of making untrue statements about another which damages his/her reputation. If the defamatory statement is printed or broadcast over the media it is libel and, if only oral, it is slander. Public figures, including officeholders and candidates, have to show that the defamation was made with malicious intent and was not just fair comment.

the website firstamendmentcoalition also has interesting Q & A with a specialized attorney on the narrow aspect of defamation and letters to the editor …

Q: I am a owner and publisher of a local community newspaper. We printed a letter to the editor that named a person in the community and mentioned their family in regards to legal matters and other issues they were dealing with. Now the person the letter referenced is suing my newspaper, claiming defamation of character. Not sure what my rights are or if I should be worried.

A: There are many defenses to defamation, though of course we’d have to know more about the specific facts to determine what those defenses might be. For example, if the editorial was the writer’s opinion, and could not be construed to be a statement of fact that is false, then the allegedly defamatory statements would be protected under the First Amendment. Likewise, if the editorial discussed legal matters that are matters of public record, then there may be a defense based on the fair report privilege.

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A book titled “White Fragility” is not a book that draws me in so I never read it. I find this review interesting and confirms my concerns with the book. A few items noted reminded me of personal experiences. I have snipped below for clarity:

This reminds me of the concept of ‘micro-aggression’ that was a topic in one of my classes when I was pursuing my masters in I/O Psychology. One article I read just really ignited a fire in me. The author spoke of a time he and his colleague were travelling (both in a protected minority class, according to the author). He boarded a very small commuter plane (roughly 15 passenger plane). They seated themselves halfway to the back. A few moments later, 4 “white business men” seated themselves together in the first row. The stewardess *(‘white’ according to the author) asked the author and his colleague to move to the back of the plane for balancing purposes. He went on to explain that the stewardess asked himself and his colleague to move due to her ‘mocroaggression’ against him. He went on to explain “it’s not her fault, just a product of being white”. He also stated he did not ask her why she asked them specifically to move - he just ASSumed it was due to race.

What burned me about this is that load planning and plane balancing is an important part of keeping the planes in the air. Smaller planes are much more delicate as far as balancing goes and without knowing the weight of the fuel, weight of the baggage, where the fuel tank and baggage compartment are on the plane, it is difficult to say if moving the 4 gentlemen to the back and leaving the 2 colleagues in the center would be a detriment. There are just so many factors other than someone’s outward appearance that go into plane balancing that the author doesn’t know but feels he has the authority to call someone else racist? Isn’t his assumption that someone did something for a particular reason because of that person’s skin tone make him racist?

I had an internal chuckle at the first paragraph in this post - I was talking about my experiences going on a run in my neighborhood to a few people. I don’t do it for 'pleasure" but to maintain necessary fitness. However, I was explaining to my friends that I tend to be a bit self conscience because I live in a low income neighborhood and generally people in low income neighborhoods don’t go on runs purely for fitness. Generally they are overworked, overstressed, disabled, etc. so I’m the only one and people make innocuous comments (“way to go” “keep it up”) but just the act of people looking at me just…embarrassed is probably the closest word.

So, my one black colleague made a comment that my statement was racist. I looked at her a bit puzzled until she explained further. Long story short, she ASSumed my neighborhood is predominantly black and I was being coy using “low income”. I corrected her - my neighborhood is full of poor WHITE people (it’s about 80% white, 15% black, 5% mix of Asian/Hispanic/etc). Kind of racist to assume because someone is low income they are any particular other demographic (black in this case).

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This thread got me to thinking about Arthur Ashe, who used to play a bit of tennis in his time. But he had some heart trouble in the eighties which required surgery. Which was risky at the time because of AIDS. And he got HIV, which progressed to AIDS, and he knew he was dying. Leaving behind a beloved wife and young daughter. I cannot imagine how hard that would be.

But he was asked about that, and he said this is not the toughest thing I have endured.
Racism was what he said was the hardest thing. Because we do it to each other, and we don’t have to.

We don’t have to treat each other like this, we could do better. We could all do better.

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Good post about racism.

You’re right - we don’t have to treat each other like this. We can all do better.

Some of us strongly believe that part of doing better involves exercising care before accusing others of racism. It’s a powerful and ugly accusation. It should not be made lightly.

Thomas Sowell (noteworthy black economist and intellectual who was born in 1930 in America, and knew a thing or two about racism, and lived during the Civil Rights Era)… well… he has a famous quote that is one of my favorites:

”People who talk incessantly about “change” are often dogmatically set in their ways. They want to change other people.”

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“But when Candace Owens is the only name someone immediately recognized in the original list, it tells me something about them… and how well read… or actually not so well read… they are.”

Simply because someone (myself included) commented solely on Ms. Owens does not necessarily indicate that she is the only name with which they are familiar.
It may be that she is the only one on the list I consider a loon.
And if you don’t think she is, I submit to you that her incredible inability to comprehend the Gamergate fiasco is pretty solid evidence.

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I didn’t mean for that post to come off as though I was attacking you in particular… but I can understand if it did.

@Maude has made multiple posts on this thread now suggesting folks read a number of black conservative writers and thinkers… and she’s provided a list of names each time that includes both Candace Owens and the others I chose to highlight… each time she’s made this comment, everyone has started to focus on Candace Owens and now 4 or 5 different posters have said disparaging things about CO in response to Maude’s post.

I get it. I really do.

Please… lets agree that there is a case to be made with respect to the wisdom of ignoring Candace Owens.

Focus on Thomas Sowell and Shelby Steele instead :wink: They’re amazing writers and thinkers abc human beings.

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Lol if you look hard enough you can also find plenty of women that don’t support women’s rights.

Just like you can find black Americans that don’t support black lives matter.

Cherry picking a group of people that have views that already align with yours doesn’t count as learning.

And another thing for those of you saying that “why was this ok 5 years ago but is suddenly a problem now?” It wasn’t ok 5 years ago either but more people are listening and learning about systemic racism, implicit bias, white fragility, and prejudices and realizing their own faults and their own mistakes… which is what all of us should be doing in order to grow. So if you didn’t see a problem with the name 5 years ago but you do now, it means you’ve grown and you should be proud of yourself for that. SOME people just don’t understand that because they haven’t done the work themselves.

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I’ve read some of “white fragility.” But will admit, put it down partway through as I found the book a less than compelling read. I’ve also read a few articles by Jason McWhorter - he does support some aspects of the national outcry in the wake of George Floyd’s death. And a lot of Thomas Sowell.

I strongly agree with this part of your post:

”Cherry picking a group of people that have views that already align with yours doesn’t count as learning”

The rest of your post sounds very much like the thought process advocated by Robin DiAngelo. You already know what I think of her book. But I acknowledge it’s popular right now.

Thomas Sowell is not as popular right now, sadly (in my opinion). And he’s 90… so hardly a voice young, hip people gravitate toward readily. But he’s a great writer and American thinker. SOME people are aware of that because they thought about and read about issues of race prior to the last few years. Good for them. OTHERS have only become aware of his writing very recently, because they’ve expanded their horizons with respect to reading and considering different perspectives on the issue of race in America, and should be proud of themselves (for trying to think about abc learn about multiple perspectives on an important issue).

SOME people just don’t understand a different perspective on race issues though, because they haven’t done the work of reading a variety of perspectives themselves.

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I’ve made a point of going to BLM protests this summer and each one had different speakers so I’ve listened to a “variety of perspectives.” And if you’ve never been to one, I’d recommend going. There were regularly LGBTQ speakers, black speakers, Native American speakers, and just about anyone who wanted to talk about their experiences.

And the point I was trying to make about white privilege in the equestrian community is that no one is saying that because your white you automatically have it easier than equestrians of color. I’ve shared my experience because I know I had it rough but I can still look back and say that as hard as things where they weren’t hard because of my skin color.

We’ve all worked really hard to get where we are in our riding career. Whether you grew up with money or no money or you’re black or white. So when we talk about “white privilege” it’s SO easy to get defensive and say “wait a minute, I didn’t get here because of privilege, I got here because I worked hard!” Which is a totally understandable reaction. But “White privilege” just means that you’ve never experienced racism due to the color of your skin. That’s it. You may have experienced other hardships and nobody is saying you’re not deserving and didn’t work hard.

I really wish more white people could stop being defensive over this. This doesn’t mean anyone is attacking you, it doesn’t mean anyone’s calling you a racist. But if you drop the ego, and recognize how you benefited from white privilege it might make you a more empathetic listener.

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@Virginia Horse Mom @Maude @BoyleHeightsKid … if you are interested in in reading black academics…I suggest looking int 1776Unites.
https://1776unites.com/

The 1776Unites is a group of black intellectuals, academics and experts with impressive credentials…yet we rarely read about them

https://1776unites.com/scholars

  • Glenn C. Loury is the Merton P. Stoltz Professor of the Social Sciences and Professor of Economics at Brown University. Ph.D. in Economics (MIT, 1976).
  • Jason D. Hill is a professor of philosophy at DePaul University
  • Joshua Mitchell is currently professor of political theory at Georgetown University.
  • Robert Cherry is a professor of economics at Brooklyn College and the City University of New York Graduate Center.
  • Carol Swain retired professor of political science and law at Princeton and Vanderbilt Universities
  • Wilfred Reilly is an Associate Professor of Political Science at Kentucky State University, a historically black university
  • John H. McWhorter is associate professor of English and comparative literature at Columbia University. He earned his Ph.D. in linguistics from Stanford.
John McWhorter, from Columbia U, is an interesting speaker....you can hear him on youtube. He has an essay on this topic that was originally published in Reason.com https://1776unites.com/featured-essa...-original-sin/

The 1619 Project Depicts an America Tainted by Original Sin


Since last August, The New York Times has asked us to consider that America’s real founding was not in 1776 but in 1619, when the first Africans were brought to these shores. Nikole Hannah-Jones teaches that the Revolutionary War was fought mainly not to escape British tyranny, but out of fear that British tyranny was about to threaten the institution of slavery.

Stimulating proposition, but professional historians, as modern academics about as enlightened on issues of race and racism as any humans on the planet, have politely but firmly declared that the facts simply do not bear out this take on our nation’s founding. Gordon Wood and others wrote careful and authoritative pieces to this effect, and more recently Sean Wilentz has penned a careful response to the inevitable pushback. Unless fact is not fact, unless documentation is forgery, no unbiased observer could read Wilentz here as partisan or as even swayed by subconscious racism.


The insistence on maintaining the 1619 idea is rooted in a pervasive modern notion that when evaluating race issues, it is a form of intelligence and morality to duck truth when it is inconvenient to a victimhood-focused construct. W.E.B. Du Bois tackled the Dunning School with facts; today people sensing themselves as his heirs insist we accept alternative facts. Yet, to point out that neither Du Bois, Frederick Douglass, nor Martin Luther King Jr. would see this as progress renders one a heretic. This is one more thing we must overcome.

Here is a link to an essay by Carol Swain

From rural poverty to Ivy League professor
https://1776unites.com/essays/from-r…-life-lessons/

@Virginia Horse Mom @Maude @BoyleHeightsKid and all others who are interested in reading material by black academics.

I suggest reading some of the essays in 1776Unites. This a site with a collection of essay by a group of black intellectuals, academics and experts with impressive credentials…yet we rarely read about them

https://1776unites.com/scholars

  • Glenn C. Loury is the Merton P. Stoltz Professor of the Social Sciences and Professor of Economics at Brown University. Ph.D. in Economics (MIT, 1976).
  • Jason D. Hill is a professor of philosophy at DePaul University
  • Joshua Mitchell is currently professor of political theory at Georgetown University.
  • Robert Cherry is a professor of economics at Brooklyn College and the City University of New York Graduate Center.
  • Carol Swain retired professor of political science and law at Princeton and Vanderbilt Universities
  • Wilfred Reilly is an Associate Professor of Political Science at Kentucky State University, a historically black university
  • John H. McWhorter is associate professor of English and comparative literature at Columbia University. He earned his Ph.D. in linguistics from Stanford.
John McWhorter, from Columbia U, is an interesting speaker....you can hear him on youtube. He has an essay on this topic that was originally published in Reason.com https://reason.com/2020/01/30/the-1619-project-depicts-an-america-tainted-by-original-sin/

The 1619 Project Depicts an America Tainted by Original Sin


Since last August, The New York Times has asked us to consider that America’s real founding was not in 1776 but in 1619, when the first Africans were brought to these shores. Nikole Hannah-Jones teaches that the Revolutionary War was fought mainly not to escape British tyranny, but out of fear that British tyranny was about to threaten the institution of slavery.

Stimulating proposition, but professional historians, as modern academics about as enlightened on issues of race and racism as any humans on the planet, have politely but firmly declared that the facts simply do not bear out this take on our nation’s founding. Gordon Wood and others wrote careful and authoritative pieces to this effect, and more recently Sean Wilentz has penned a careful response to the inevitable pushback. Unless fact is not fact, unless documentation is forgery, no unbiased observer could read Wilentz here as partisan or as even swayed by subconscious racism.


The insistence on maintaining the 1619 idea is rooted in a pervasive modern notion that when evaluating race issues, it is a form of intelligence and morality to duck truth when it is inconvenient to a victimhood-focused construct. W.E.B. Du Bois tackled the Dunning School with facts; today people sensing themselves as his heirs insist we accept alternative facts. Yet, to point out that neither Du Bois, Frederick Douglass, nor Martin Luther King Jr. would see this as progress renders one a heretic. This is one more thing we must overcome.

Dr. Carol Swain has a great essay on her life
From Rural Poverty to Ivy League Professor
https://1776unites.com/essays/from-rural-poverty-to-ivy-league-professor-carol-swains-life-lessons/

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@pluvinel Thank you 😊

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Which is sad because you sound like the sort of person who could benefit the most from that book.

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As I spent my week discussing the importance of allies, I don’t view this remark as positive allyship.

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And why not? White fragility is the defensiveness, uncomfortableness, and unwillingness many white people have around race issues. It does not mean that white people are bad or that white people are all racists.

Ironically, the people who read the phrase “white fragility” and already get upset over it are the ones that would really benefit from having an open mind and reading that book. Also ironically is me pointing that out and you seeing it an attack is again another example of it.

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