Because you are assuming a lot and ignoring the post by @pluvinel You talk about an open mind but you won’t expand it beyond hearing, reading and listening from those who support your opinion.
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Precisely.
Saying I listened to black people who agreed with me is not allyship or antiracist.
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So you can “educate” yourself to a point where racism stops bugging you?
As a side note, I consider myself poorly educated. Was not aware that one could get out of an undergrad program without at least a brief encounter with at Sowell, Crouch and
Steele. But it sounds like some are assuming these people are unknown to the rest of us?
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If you want to engage in a discussion about racism, I am all for it. I generally do not engage in such discussions with people who tell me a book like “White Fragility” is exactly what I need because in my experience they tend to not be willing to listen to and accept my opinion. I have found they tend to talk down to me as if I am unintelligent. However, I will explain why I feel terms like “White Fragility”, “White Guilt”, and “White Privilege” are a detriment to true equality and understanding. I will write two relatively long posts - one from an academic stand point and one from a personal stand point - to start the conversation. Let me know if you want to listen to my opinion.
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Thank you.
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Condescension won’t increase books sales or readership. That is why people who promote books don’t do it from a 45 degree angle (looking down upon the intended audience).
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Why the assumption that we have not encountered these people? They have been mainstream conservatives for decades. Any reasonably educated person has read their works.
I say that humbly, as a graduate of a place referred to lovingly as" Last Chance Cowboy College."
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You want me to listen to your opinion on a topic you refuse to educate yourself about? No, sorry I do not care to listen to that.
You’re proving the point even more that you’ll bother to write two essays defending yourself for not believing in white fragility without actually reading and educating yourself on the topic. That’s literally white fragility right there. If you want to prove me wrong, go read the book and then come back and let’s have this discussion. I’ll even send you a copy.
But if I wanted to hear another white person complain about being confronted with topics like “white fragility” and “white privilege” I’d just go to Facebook.
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This is a fair point. And I will take it onboard and do my best to stop with condescending counter attacks… it’s not helping.
Look, I can only speak for myself. But over the course of this thread, many posters who firmly believe in the merit of the ideas espoused on the book “White Fragility” have characterized those who have a different opinion as:
Ignorant
Bigoted
Uneducated
Racist
Insensitive
Intolerant
etc etc etc. Some of us on the receiving end of this sort of stuff have described ourselves as “ignorant rednecks”… because self deprecating humor occasionally clues in others that you have had quite enough of insulting language… and gets them to disk it back a bit.
Unfortunately, I think John McWhorter is on to something when he describes the devotion some people now have to the ideas put forth in the book “White Fragility” as “cult like.” Earlier attempts at self deprecating humor for NOWHERE with a few posters on these forums, AHS they have continued to lecture others on what we need to read, what we need to do in order to stop being so ignorant, etc etc etc.
At a certain point, many folks get their backs up when you speak to them like that.
I, as well as others, have pushed back in these threads and tested just how well read some of the other posters are. It started as an argumentative tactic for sure, but morphed into some of us actually sharing with others about different writers and thinkers that we have found interesting and worthwhile, and I think that’s positive.
It’s probably best for the discussion to move forward at this point. Neither side is convincing the other side of much of anything, and we are all just getting more offended with one another.
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I guess since the whole main topic of this thread is people offending others with words - I so should be offended by the part I underlined.
No higher education degrees here but I sure think I am reasonably educated.
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Higher minds than mine (Steven Covey) have said that Highly Effective People, “…choose to understand before asking to be understood.”
So my take-away from your post is that you have no interest in engaging in a discussion with others, that you have no interest in understanding others’ points of view and that you are unwilling to have a dialogue or civil discourse.
So tell my why I should want to listen to your opinion if you won’t reciprocate the courtesy of listening to mine?
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“White Fragility” as a concept is not the same thing as “White Fragility” the book, which IMHO, is deeply flawed, nevermind the small industry the author has turned it into with her $$$$ corporate “workshops”. (and yes, I am aware she donates some of it.)
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I am reading a lot of assumptions in this post. If I am to understand your post, you are assuming because I have not yet read the book “White Fragility” that I have no education on the topic of racism, you are assuming I will not read the book prior to posting, you are assuming that my posts will be defensive in nature without giving me the opportunity to share.
This post quoted is the reason I generally do not share my opinion, I find it very condescending. To me it reads as if Equkelly has all the answers and those that do or may disagree are uneducated.
EDIT: yes, what @pluvinel said, as well.
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that’s really the crux of the matter, isn’t it?
When pressed about ‘do you want to make them feel bad OR do you want the name changed’ the answer was essentially ‘neither’ - i want systemic racism and injustice to end.
Well we ALL WANT THAT. However…oh never mind.
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This I will disagree with. Robin DiAngelo has been VERY successful with respect to turning condescension into book sales.
But the secret of her success is not so much about the quality of her book and writing, but more a matter of effective marketing, and a unique and effective sales boosting strategy. She is actually not a traditional academic author… she was a corporate trainer first, who later returned to school, pursued a career in academia, an advanced degree, and then published books pertaining to her area of focus… which happens to be “whiteness studies - a subset of multicultural studies.” THEN she turned around, and commoditized her academic work, and returned to her roots as a corporate trainer, and marketed herself as a “diversity consultant” who could come into corporations and other large organizations, and lead “employee training” with respect to diversity and inclusion issues in the workplace. That sounds all well and good… until you go and read reviews from many folks who have actually participated in her training, and feel that it actually caused INCREASED racial tension and resentment in the workplace, and damaged cooperative relationships.
She managed to sell lots of her books as part of her “diversity consulting” and “corporate training” activities, however.
The VERY cynical side of me, that was formed during my days many moons ago working as a corporate consultant, believes that her success is largely due to the fact that organizations EVERYWHERE are trying to put together “diversity and inclusion,” programs, and then invest in “training”. I wish this was because they cared deeply about such issues. But like I said, I’m cynical. I believe this is more an effort to proactively have a “defense” at the ready if a corporation or organization is sued over a workplace issue pertaining to any sort of racial insensitivity, discrimination, or a hostile workplace issue involving an employee who is a member of a protected group, etc.
The people behind the scenes who sit down and decide on WHICH “diversity consultant” and “corporate training module for improved workplace diversity and sensitivity” to spend money on do not compare and contrast options because they think one or another will be the best suited to create a more harmonious workplace…
NOPE. :no: Sorry… but I actually helped an HR department many moons ago decide which consultant and training program to contract with…
The number one decision factor in terms of who we selected was, “If we get into an ugly litigation situation in the future, which option most effectively signals we were trying to be a ‘good corporate citizen’ on this issue?
The number two decision factor pertaining to selection was, “How expensive is the consultant and training program? And is the training program readily implemented, with something simple concrete and economical we can purchase for all employees as part of their training?” A simple thing… like a paperback book.
THAT is a MAJOR reason this book “White Fragility” has permeated society at present.
Years ago, I was involved with the bid for corporate consulting and ‘off the shelf’ corporate training pertaining to ‘management opportunities’ for young talent at our company. They wanted a targeted program back then, because we were suffering from a ‘brain drain’ in terms of burnt out young associates who were working 60 - 70 hour weeks, plus travel, for nasty bosses… yet not promoting, or getting anything remotely resembling decent raises for multiple years on end. There were also some nepotism and blatantly sexist hiring and promotional practices that are a corporate concern… snd brewing litigation worries.
The program we settled on going with at that time to solve that problem was “The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People” and as part of the program, we bought all employees who participated a nifty little Stephen Covey day planner. They cost $7 apiece. I helped analyze how cost effective this corporate training “solution” was. :yes:
I inwardly CRINGE when I think back on some of my nice 20 something year old female friends who were also going to school at night to get their MBAs, after working 60 hour days in cubicle hell, who put their job hunts on hold because management had just told them they too were being ‘groomed’ for a special promotion, and were getting to attend the Stephen Covey training program.
No one got a promotion or raise because of that program. But many job hunts were delayed by about 18 months and the corporation did get more proverbial blood from a talented young 20 something year old stone in the process. At a very economical salary point. :sigh:
Workplaces across America are NOT becoming more diverse, inclusive and harmonious because of Robin DiAngelo’s consulting work, and the fact that employees all get to attend training, and get a copy of her book “White Fragility” as part of the training.
But let me tell you, the companies who spend money on this WILL be better positioned to defend themselves in the event they are sued over a workplace discrimination issue, and a hostile work environment issue related to an employee who is a member of a protected class. THAT is what they really care about right now in Corporate America. Trust me. And Robin DiAngelo is making a nice little profit off this. You better believe it.
Read the book and believe in her training program if you want though. Just realize, she’s kind of like the Stephen Covey of ‘Diversity and Inclusion’ in the workplace.
Read John McWhorter’s review of her book if you don’t believe me… it’s DEVASTATING. Because he is a real academic with serious chops, who does care deeply about these issues. I don’t agree at all with everything he writes. But the contrast between his writing and Robin DiAngelo’s book? It’s NIGHT and DAY.
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OMG… we are both bringing Stephen Covey into this discussion at the same time :lol::lol::lol:
But honestly… I loathe the guy and much of what he’s written. Because I spent way too much time in Corporate America and an MBA program 20 years ago.
The only writer I cringe at more is Jim Collins. Noone should EVER have to endure another seminar pertaining to BHAGs… or do the silky worksheet and other corporate training exercises that go along with that…
All this talk about the “work” required to be “anti racist” is soooo subtly reminiscent of so much of this sort of corporate training kitsch. :rolleyes:
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I don’t expect you to listen to my opinion actually. There’s 70 pages on this topic and those of you still defending the name 70 pages later, making the same terrible fallacious arguments for the 1000th time are a lost cause to be completely brutally honest. I’m not here to change minds, I’m here to poke holes in some of the BS arguments I’ve seen.
For me, I just think it’s important to speak out especially when it’s my home town we’re talking about. I’m not going to change your mind clearly, but I think it’s important to talk about white fragility because IMO that’s mostly how this all went so wrong.
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You must be reading a different thread than I am.
I read 69 pages of people explaining that this was handled wrong. Not defending the name, but defending why the owner was upset about being treated this way by someone whose main goal was to get clicks on their website. Not defending the name, but explaining how this was handled 100% wrong and how this could have been a great success story if the person/people who made this mess had stepped back and looked at the greater good instead of how to get clicks on their website.
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I 100% agree with you on this. Obviously. :lol:
I just think the concept, and the book, and the corporate training are all completely intertwined at this point… and it is something I can’t get past. At all.
And I admittedly am deeply suspicious of advice books and corporate training type books of all types. I can’t read any of them without a little voice I the back of my head wondering, “Who the heck wrote this one, and what kind of disingenuous fraud are they?”
I know… it’s an ugly little mindset. But seriously. Society would be so much better off if all of these books came with a warning label on them that said
“Written by a shameless, self promoting huckster. Believe in the advice at your own risk.”
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It is quite the business though. They are smart at how to make money. No reason to say anything that really works or is true.
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