Yet another OTTB pedigree question!:winkgrin:
Any thoughts on this boy’s lines?
https://www.pedigreequery.com/gee+gee+flicker
This is definitely an eventer’s (or jumper’s) pedigree.
I’m not familiar with Wordsmith, the sire, but the damline is not uncommon in the US – just harder to find up close.
There is a good amount to like about this pedigree from an eventing perspective - just at a glance, the Danzig/Nijinsky is a good pairing, I’ve seen, for tough (but sensitive) TBs. Red Ransom is a very desirable sire to have up close, and was popular in his day – the offspring I’ve seen by him are classy, excellent jumpers. His sire, Roberto, is a known source of good (competitive) movement for dressage, and excellent jumping ability.
What intrigues me more about this horse is T.V Lark, Star Kingdom, and Mill Reef right on the first page… getting harder to find them up close, especially in US breds – and all three are very powerful stallions to have IMHO. Mill Reef particularly, is proven for UL eventing – and T.V Lark is a solid line for the old format. Star Kingdom is another line that has produced multiple UL horses, though I see him less in less in modern pedigrees.
The distaff has Sandy Island/Sayonara, both mares that interests me due to their linebreeding to Alchimist(GER). This stallion shows up with frequency in some very classy german lines – think Allegretta (Galileo’s dam). Very good sign to see him linebred.
There is a significant amount of linebreeding back to Dark Ronald in this pedigree, especially on the damside… that is very promising for sport, given how meaningful Dark Ronald’s impact was on WBs.
Overall off pedigree alone, there is nothing that would dissuade me on paper from looking at this horse. :yes:
What beowulf said! There is no Mr. P. There is no Storm Cat. What is not to like about this? I would definitely check him out!
Is it bad to have those in a pedigree? If so, why?
No, it is not bad to have those in a pedigree. Storm Cat tends to get incredible jump, possibly one of the best present-day jumping lines available. Mr. P is one of the most diverse stallions in modern thoroughbred history; seeing his name alone means nothing whatsoever.
So fun fact for the OP: your horse shares a broodmare sire with 5* eventer and Burghley entrant Unmarked Bills.
Mr. P traces back to Raise a Native, who did not produce the best legs and feet. Ask Vineyridge about that line. A lot of TB’s have been line bred to him, which is where the problem lies.
Storm Cat lineage definitely produces good jump. I used to own one, so I know of what I speak. However, they can be quite quirky and opinionated. If that is your type of horse, then good. It happened that I did not like getting run away with in the Dressage warm up. My mare was awesome over fences. If I had been in my 30’s or younger, I probably would have been fine.
With those things in mind, I appreciate a pedigree that has the older bloodlines, like the one about which the OP asked.
People who don’t want Mr P in a pedigree, probably have a very limited understanding of who Mr P was and what he produced. As another poster mentioned, his type was all over the board… but his sons could stamp and a lot of them left lasting legacies within the sport.
Some of his best sons for sport off of the top of my head and by no means exhaustive: Allen’s Prospect, Rare Performer, Seeking The Gold, Distinctive Pro* (a really good line, IMHO, for eventing), Crafty Prospector, Miner’s Mark, Fappiano (an excellent eventing sire), Kingmambo, Gulch, Not For Love…
Storm Cat is an excellent name to see in a pedigree, especially if you want jumping talent or good basic gaits. Which was funny, because (IMHO) he himself was not a good mover, and neither were his direct get… but consistently, when he is a grandfather particularly tail male, his g-children are all very typey movers. See Giant’s Causeway, Black Minnaloushe, Freud, Johannesburg, Frost Giant for example. Storm Cat is very desirable, if you want a catty, game, brave horse. All of these stallions, to my eye, are very consistent in type.
As someone with a Storm Cat grandson, I feel silly for never having heard of the influence from Storm Cat for a good jump! I’d only ever heard about the difficult personalities. My guy was a super brave and a great jumper before he got hurt, but definitely has some strong opinions about life.
Update!
I now have had him home a week and have had a couple of rides before I turn him out
He has an absolutely amazing brain and is so willing to please and learn that I can’t wait to get him out when he is ready!
It’s not bad. It’s just unusual. Linebreeding concentrates faults as well as attributes. Mr.P and Storm Cat are ubiquitous in modern pedigrees so it is refreshing to see something different. Genetic diversity, well considered, is a good thing.
Some folks, when they see a sire’s name on a pedigree, seem to forget that there is a mare involved in the production as well.
It is even more difficult to find a TB pedigree without Northern Dancer, yet It doesn’t follow that his presence in a pedigree is necessarily a negative.
He’s a beauty. :yes: Congratulations!
He’s lovely, congratulations!
Until mares can produce as many offspring as a stallion can, most people will have more experience with a stallion’s get versus a mare. Just the way the world works. A good producing mare can maybe get 10 offspring in a life-time of breeding; a stallion can sire 150 offspring in a single season.
I’ve worked with and handled hundreds of OTTBs… many of them by the same sires… very few of them by the same dams. So it’s much easier to quantify what a stallion stamps vs what a mare brings along to the equation, when looking in the broad scheme of things.
Believe you me, I wish certain mares were as prolific. :yes:
I do realize that, but as the stallion moves to the back of the pedigree the mares involved come into play, don’t you think?
Mr. Prospector (as an example) 5 generations back will have less influence on a horse’s conformation than he would if he was the horse’s sire.