Ever ditch the martingale?

[ZuzusPetals]

Has anyone tried losing a standing martingale for a horse who typically goes in one? Or does that kind of head carriage stick around for life?

Likewise, have you ever looked at a bit that the horse has used forever and thought: Gee, a lot of years have passed and maybe we could step it down one?

I’m not criticizing how this horse was influenced by people far more skillful than I. Never would I make changes without a coach’s guidance. The animal is comfortable. But I’m curious whether needs evolve.

[trubandloki]

@ZuzusPetals

Has anyone tried losing a standing martingale for a horse who typically goes in one? Or does that kind of head carriage stick around for life?

Likewise, have you ever looked at a bit that the horse has used forever and thought: Gee, a lot of years have passed and maybe we could step it down one?

I’m not criticizing how this horse was influenced by people far more skillful than I. Never would I make changes without a coach’s guidance. The animal is comfortable. But I’m curious whether needs evolve.

Your very broad questions that read more as digs than as real questions have me scratching my head.

I do not understand your first question. What head carriage sticking around for life?
My hunter went the same with or with out a martingale, the martingale was long enough it did nothing, so it had nothing to do with how he carried himself.
What is the martingale doing that you are wondering about?
My horse went in a double jointed snaffle, what should I step down to?

[endlessclimb]

The one and only time I had the gall to take a running martingale off a horse that I didn’t own because I thought “oh he doesn’t need this” I got promptly run away with, horse’s ears in my mouth. I had a bugger of a time getting the horse stopped. The martingale was fitted SO LOOSE. The horse was SO QUIET. He NEVER tested it. But - there was some history there that I didn’t know, I didn’t ask about, and I found out about the hard way.

So, if it’s not my horse, no not really. As long as it isn’t fitted in an abusive way, I don’t question equipment choices on animals that are not mine.

[Xctrygirl]

Ok to answer the question… Absolutely needs evolve and education increases (For horse AND rider)

I have always been able to “step down” my bits/equipment as horse and I got more solid and as education and skills/muscling improved.

In eventing, my nice horse used a thin loose ring snaffle in all phases once we got to intermediate. And in jumpers, my nice guy there is also in a thinner loose ring snaffle and no more flash/figure 8/level noseband. We lost the breastplate on him too after re-flocking the saddle and wow the shoulder movement change.

It can be done.

Em

[saturnalian]

Somewhat of a spinoff question - is using a martingale (standing or running), or breastplate, or maybe any tack, ever a detriment if a horse doesn’t need one and if it’s fitted and used correctly?

My hunter 100% did not need a martingale but still wore one as, in my eyes - and many others as I’ve heard - it completes ‘the look’. The neck strap accentuated his shoulder. However, on the other hand, it seems like a lot of people have issue with using tack that isn’t necessary.

[Foxglove]

16 years ago bought a horse off the hunt field that I’d admired for two years. Came with a standing martingale. Didn’t see he needed it so took it off. Turned out the reason he needed it was the previous rider rode two-handed “control every step,” style. I ride reiners/cutting sorting horses in the summer and fox hunt same horses in the winter. I generally ride one handed (yes over fences too because I’m carrying my hunt whip in the other hand). And out of habit, I ride in a loose, loopy rein. Once the horse was mine, he quickly brought his nose down and kept his mind on his job. The constant pressure on the bit was (I guess) causing him to brace and toss his head. Eventually tracked him back through owners to ND where he’d been (can you guess?) a cutting/sorting/roping horse. We suite each other with just a snaffle bridle.

[fivestrideline]

Broad and vague questions that to me, sound more like an attempt to disguise contempt for other people’s choices. What are you actually trying to ask here? What headset? No martingale is “setting” a head.

I’m a very strong believer in “less is more” but also, find tack that fits, and your horse is happy in, and stop. messing. with. it.

Figure out your tack, and leave it alone. Ride. Reevaluate if things stop working, but otherwise you (g) don’t need to think about your gear that much.

[Jackie_Cochran]

First, this mare did not jump.

She was super inverted when I got her. Her next favorite defenses were either bolting or balking. A standing martingale was needed. She had no idea of contact, etc…

It took me 6 months, riding in a double bridle working on her contact with the help of the standing martingale. After 6 months she had become civilized and learned how to do contact properly. I took off her standing martingale and switched her to a snaffle bit and she did fine, including on loose reins–so long as I rode her 6-7 days a week.

I never felt I had to put the standing martingale back on her even though she was NOT a quiet mare.

[fivestrideline]

I have no problems with unnecessary tack as long as it isn’t influencing the horse. I think most hunters look better in a standing because it breaks up the outline a bit. And provides me with a Panic Strap when I inevitably ask the horse to leave from Mars and there’s nothing but braids to grab .

[Scribbler]

@ZuzusPetals

Has anyone tried losing a standing martingale for a horse who typically goes in one? Or does that kind of head carriage stick around for life?

Likewise, have you ever looked at a bit that the horse has used forever and thought: Gee, a lot of years have passed and maybe we could step it down one?

I’m not criticizing how this horse was influenced by people far more skillful than I. Never would I make changes without a coach’s guidance. The animal is comfortable. But I’m curious whether needs evolve.

I’m a less is more person. I don’t even use a noseband to school dressage, let alone a crank. I don’t use leg boots or polo wraps. Etc.

The question about martingales depends on why the horse uses one.

Does he have an ongoing behavior issue that will resurface without one, like head tossing or bolting? Did he have a behavior issue in the past that is now resolved but the rider continues to use the tack just in case? Has anyone who knows the horse tested him without it recently? Or are you in a hunter barn where everybody thinks a martingale just looks pretty and more gear looks fancier?

If this is a lesson or lease horse whose primary care training and influence is outside your control, then you ride in the tack the owner or coach specifies and you don’t question that. If you find they are making such bad choices for the horse that you can’t stand to be involved, then you end your association and find another horse or program.

If you are however buying a horse it would be a completely legitimate question to ask why he goes in a martingale and to ask to see the owner or trainer ride him without it before you do a trial ride with and without it. You don’t want to buy a horse that has deeply embedded dangerous habits like bolting or excessive head tossing, both because of your own safety and because these point to training holes you will need to fix.

Obviously most horses that wear a martingale in hunter can be ridden without one just fine

But like I said, if it’s not your horse you don’t get to set the rules.

On the other hand if I was in a program where all the horses were in martingales and gag or elevator bits I would quietly leave.

[GoodTimes]

I show in a standing martingale, but I don’t use one at home. I like the look, especially on my gelding who is a little long and has a small head. But if I’m rushed at a show, or forgot to clean it than I don’t use it.

Both of my horses can get a little fresh. They each have a simple Myler that they flat in and a bit that they jump in. My gelding is finally mature enough that 99% of the time I jump him in the Myler that he flats in. My young mare needs more brakes at shows and sometimes when jumping, so she has a level 2 myler with hooks for a little more leverage. I suspect that in a few years I won’t need that bit anymore.

[JB]

@ZuzusPetals

Has anyone tried losing a standing martingale for a horse who typically goes in one? Or does that kind of head carriage stick around for life?

I used one for years on the real JB because “everyone else did it”. Eventually I got tired of cleaning it and stopped using it. He didn’t go any differently without it.

If you’re using a SM for “head carriage” then you (nearly always) need to go back to same basics and figure out why he’s carrying his head above a normal relaxed position. I say “nearly always” because there is always that one speshul horse who knows it’s there and will play around and be a dink without it, but will never question it when it’s there.

@ZuzusPetals

have you ever looked at a bit that the horse has used forever and thought: Gee, a lot of years have passed and maybe we could step it down one?

Yeah, same thing. Everyone used a regular single-jointed snaffle, and once I learned the effects that can have on the roof of the mouth, “stepped down” to a double jointed bits of a variety of types. It’s less about years, more about training

What if you’re already using a double-jointed bit - what’s a “step down” from there? A thinner bit? Fatter? Curved mouthpiece? Straighter mouthpiece?

@ZuzusPetals

But I’m curious whether needs evolve.

100% needs evolve. The rider should be improving their skills. The horse should be improving his skills.

There’s also a huge difference between the sort of control needed tooling around a 3’ Hunter course, and a GP Jumper course with tricky combinations and giant runs down to tight 1-strides. Better to have more control from equipment and not need it, than not have it and end up bashed in the nose or crashed a wall because your horse got excited and tuned you out

[ZuzusPetals]

@fivestrideline and @trubandloki, not for one moment was this meant as a broadside or criticism. Do not mistake my genuine curiosity as an attempt to slam anyone, either on or beyond this board.

Repeating for all needing: I asked if needs evolve.

Thank you, others, for your informed responses. This is exactly what I was interested in: I switched X, and Z happened and it was a good thing/bad thing/made no difference.

[SuzieQNutter]

I took off the running martingale that the guy had tied in knots and it was scary. When they are tied down like that it creates the muscles against it and then the head goes even higher without it.

I took my life in his hands. I did not put it back on, however I am experienced and I trained him to go forward into contact. He was a show jumper. I taught him dressage.

It was scary for a week or two. Then it was not a problem.

I took him to a combined training and a girl came up and asked if he was Monition Boy. I said yes. She said she was watching me ride him in disbelief. She fell in love with him racing in New Zealand. He came over here and she bought him and he would go over backwards on her, she decided he didn’t like female riders and gave him to her trainer., which scared tge h### out of me. However he went in and did the showjumping like a lamb.

Another horse the girl was riding him in a twisted wire bit. Leaning forward going downhill, Leaning back going uphill, to build his muscles and strange things like that, he would refuse cross rails and poles on the ground in a lesson we had for 2 hours and did the same thing week after week.

She came to us and said we were going to split the lessons into 2 x 1 hour lesson. Her and the manager would go first as they were more experienced. My co-worker and I would take the 2nd lesson.

You have NEVER seen two more excited co-workers. Finally a change. We did the same thing every lesson walk, trot, canter, leg yield, watch those 2 refuse. For 2 hours.

They had their lesson, walk, trot, canter, leg yield, refuse poles on the ground.

We had our lesson, walk, trot, canter, leg yield, shoulder in, half pass. Jumping we did cross rails doubles, triples and the last fence we jumped was over 3 foot. The manager commented on the smile on my face doing that.

I can’t really remember what happened the next day. Probably Aztec going to fast and refusing. She suddenly threw the reins at me and said well you ride him then.

He was now mine. Company horses, like a company car that is yours but in this case horses.

I hopped on him and just asked for a 20 metre circle. He wanted to trot. I said okay. He wanted to canter. I said okay. He wanted to go faster I said no and wondered about what type of horse she had put me on.

The next day I tacked him up. My saddle and bridle and snaffle bit.

He was a completely different horse without having being upset by her the day before. He went well he didn’t try to go faster. He was quiet and trying to be good.

I was happy with him. I was day dreaming and looking up the mountain and I went to pat him on the neck and say Good Boy.

He spun underneath me, taking me completely by surprise. I managed to stop him and my head was down near my right stirrup. I managed to keep him stopped and get back in the saddle.

I could not take my hand off his neck without him flinching.

It was a trail ride business, she rode Tristan that day and she halted him pulled on the right rein, until he was looking at her and punched him 3 times in the face. Consequence - the manager told her not to do that in front of customers!

Poor Tristan and obviously that was what Aztec was telling me.

In 3 days I could rub him on the neck and wave a dressage whip around his head.

I asked him to go over a pole on the ground, he said if I insisted he would go up and over backwards. One day I called him on it and said go ahead then, he went over the pole and never refused again.

He went on to do Jumping Equitation at 3 foot with me and eventing as well as dressage. I passed my EA Level I Instructor Certificate on him.

I do not remember any problem going from the twisted wire bit in bad hands to a snaffle in my hands.

[foursocks]

I ride jumpers and don’t use anything–martingales or breastplates–on either of mine. I would if they needed it, but neither do. My saddles fit, and I think breastplates can sometimes make a horse feel stuck, so why use them unless you need them? If I was galloping XC, or doing grand prix or something where my horse was really cracking his back, I probably would!

My trainer (who is an eventer) had a young horse who couldn’t stand a breastplate, or even a breastcollar–he wouldn’t jump if she put one on him, but he had a massive jump, so she really had to make sure his girth was tight and the saddle was secure when he was doing stadium or XC. It was the craziest thing! He now does just dressage, so he doesn’t have to deal with any of that, which he much prefers.

I’ve used various bits over the years for my older jumper, but he likes a French link-type loose ring, so that’s what we use. It turns out my young one likes those, too! My now-retired event horse loves a HS Duo, and he went around Training with a junior in that for years.

I go for simple first, but horses are all different and I certainly have no problem trying something new or more complex if I think it might be a useful tool with a particular horse.

[anon29046226]

I have played around with what you are talking about. I have also have only done this under very narrow circumstances with regards to learning.

With school horses it has always been so I could feel what the changes would do. For example with bits I might have to nag with a half halt more. With the martingales I’ve never used them just because. I have thankfully had instructors that would tell me why it was being used. I’ve ridden a few horses who, I’m not entirely sure how to articulate this, seem to be better because it was there. Not necessarily needing it when I left it off, they just were better with it on.

With my own horses, changes would happen pretty much the same way or I would have a new set of eyes watching us and they would make small adjustments.

Sorry for the long winded post but all of the above taught me, sometimes things are needed because of the rider on board, sometimes it’s a fresh set of eyes that changes things, sometimes as the rider it’s a FAFO situation!

[glenburn]

Sometimes, when the martingale is an issue, it’s important to consider if you are too focused on riding only the front of the horse.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

I had a TB hunter that went without one for most of the year. He got one on during the early spring and changing seasons fall when the air got crisp in the northeast and he got “interested”. Otherwise, he went without mostly bc I was lazy and would just leave it off so I wouldn’t have to climb off him for the hack, bc he always needed his saddle reset and there was inevitably a sweat mark that needed to be rubbed out… and dear God, I wasn’t allowed by dictator of trainer to take off my stupid wool coat in the heat of the summer (even when it spiked to 90s and were waived by management)… and sweat of me, sweat of him, and fuzz from saddle pad. It wasn’t good… so no martingale from April/May-Labor Day. He was like a large pony in body size and movement, so he preferred going with his nose poked out and never really tossed his head or put his head between his knees.

The one I have now doesn’t need one for hacking, but we leave it on for the horse shows. I don’t think it’s ever really tight enough where it bothers her either way, but the grooms did shorten it a hole or 2 when it was ridiculously windy a few days ago, and given how all the other horses were reacting, I’m thankful for the extra level of security and focus.

[DawgLady]

@JB

If you’re using a SM for “head carriage” then you (nearly always) need to go back to same basics and figure out why he’s carrying his head above a normal relaxed position.

This is exactly what I was thinking. A horse that constantly rides the end of the standing martingale has an issue that needs attention. When you lunge this horse without tack, is he going around like a giraffe? If so, I would say it’s undeveloped (or incorrectly developed) musculature. If he’s relaxed without tack, but a giraffe under saddle, I’d say it might be (A) a product of poor riding (B) anxiety about riding or © pain.

[JenEM]

Mine doesn’t go any differently with or without a standing–if it’s come into action, it should be because something has happened out of the ordinary. During the summer I rarely use it on a daily basis, but we’ve been using it most rides this winter, since they’ve been in a lot due to weather and the horses are all a bit cold and frisky. Mare is generally super chill and would like to be a WP horse anyway, but I like having something to grab when we spook at our own reflection

When I ride with the eventer/jumper trainer, I use a three-point breastplate instead. Horse goes the same in that. But it is more work to put on, and takes longer to clean, so if I want something to grab, I usually use the standing.

The mare absolutely did not care for a regular old school “hunting” breastplate and moved short and choppy every time I tried it. She’s very particular about tack and will happily let you know something isn’t working for her.