Ex-Hurdler for Eventing & Pedigree?

[noproblem]

Long time lurker from across the pond, here!

I was wondering if anyone had any experience with hurdlers as event horses? I’ve have my fair share of flat (synthetic and turf) OTTB/ROR horses as event horses, but I don’t have any experience with one that has run hurdles. I knew one that was a show jumper years ago and he was very uncareful but I don’t know if that was just him or if it was a function of his hurdling training? The horse I’m interested in is 6yrs old and has raced a bit but hasn’t been very competitive. I really like her type and her movement but she doesn’t have any retraining yet and I am wondering whether with her training she is more likely to rush and be flat to the jumps and uncareful? Or is that just a function of riding and training?

Also, any thoughts on her pedigree? http://sporthorse-data.com/d?z=NfTN6U&d=wojciech&x=0&y=0
I remember watching Lucarno win the St Leger, but that’s not very helpful.

[weixiao]

I’d definitely expect a good jumper and probably a good enough mover from her pedigree. I googled her and also really like her type.

Can’t help with the jumping question though because I’ve only had flat horses. I’d guess it is probably pretty trainable and although I guess I could see how carefulness could be a problem we train our event horses to push through brush and plenty of them show jump carefully.

[vineyridge]

Hurdle horses are not properly taught how to jump obstacles, as their job is to jump as flat as possible to keep up their speed. You’ll have quite the retraining project, and it might not stick under pressure.

Is she NH bred on the bottom?

[Jleegriffith]

That has not been my experience at all. I have retrained seven chasers in the past few years along with lots and lots of flat racers and I find the chasers so darn easy. I don’t know if it is because they have had good trainers but around here all the trainers do so much cross training with them. Most go to jumper shows, learn to jump grids, go xc, hack out, school xc and more. I don’t find them to be quick or flat in terms of jumping. They also do more flatwork with them than the track horses get and they don’t pound them quite as much in terms of actual running.

I love them and seek them out. My personal horse ran a few times over fences and is a lovely jumper.

[vineyridge]

That has not been my experience at all. I have retrained seven chasers in the past few years along with lots and lots of flat racers and I find the chasers so darn easy. I don’t know if it is because they have had good trainers but around here all the trainers do so much cross training with them. Most go to jumper shows, learn to jump grids, go xc, hack out, school xc and more. I don’t find them to be quick or flat in terms of jumping. They also do more flatwork with them than the track horses get and they don’t pound them quite as much in terms of actual running.

I love them and seek them out. My personal horse ran a few times over fences and is a lovely jumper.

Hurdlers or chasers? There is a difference.

[Hunter_s_Rest]

JLeeG I believe is talking US 'chasers which are hurdlers. They most certainly do teach US jump race horses to jump! The flat trajectile comes from speed and the type of obstacle. Most (not all but most) hurdlers go on to useful careers over timber (and sport/hunt/show/event) because they are taught to jump methodically and sensibly.
I’ve worked 40+ years in the (US) industry for the nation’s best trainers (plus had my own and train/ed for clients) and this is my experience.
As said above, Tb’s are generally smart, so even if a horse is just crammed down over a few sheep hurdles then sent to the racecourse (overseas), they’re smart, well built athletes. I’d estimate 98 % will re-make into wonderful sport jumpers.
What Viney says is exactly correct in European vernacular - 'chase = big stiff stuffed brush hedges (Cheltenham Gold Cup/Aintree Grand National the best known) and hurdles = smaller, leaning sheep hurdles designed to jump as a ‘stride’, not as a jump. Like a human hurdle race where the athlete’s body doesn’t rise, just the legs.
But in the US, we use the term interchanably. Hurdles = 'chase here. If you’re talking timber over here, you say timber.

[noproblem]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

I’m not from the US so I think VineyRidge and I are the same page - hurdler as in 3’6 fences and faster/flatter rather than steeplechase/chasers.

I’m thinking, as much as I like her, I’ll probably keep looking for something a bit younger but I haven’t totally ruled it out yet.

[FitToBeTied]

Are you talking a timber horse or national fences. Timber horses know not to hit the fence. Some national horses have to be trained not to brush through a fence. It just takes some time and doing gymnastics. I like to use 4x4’s with the corners rounded to teach them not to brush through.

[weixiao]

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;8791505]
Are you talking a timber horse or national fences. Timber horses know not to hit the fence. Some national horses have to be trained not to brush through a fence. It just takes some time and doing gymnastics. I like to use 4x4’s with the corners rounded to teach them not to brush through.[/QUOTE]
From the OP’s post above yours it looks like she is in the UK (that’s where the mare is based, too, from my google) and when she means hurdling she means hurdling as they have it there: the fences are about 3’6 brush and very flexible so the horses usually jump through them. It is a faster pace than steeple chasing, lower fences, and the horses are encouraged to go flat through or across the jumps as quickly as possible. This is different than steeplechase and timber.

[Willesdon]

noproblem, why don’t you ask one of the many UK retraining organisations about their experience? I suspect that a good TB can handle just about anything we ask of it. I’m a massive fan.

[beowulf]

having ridden ex-hurdlers and chasers, and having been in a program that retrains them, it is not something i would want to do alone and uninformed. certainly not something i’d want to do for the ‘first time’ without being in a program with a trainer that has done it themselves.

the plus side is, you have a horse who already understands the fundamentals of the job, which is ‘Jump Big Things’.

but you have to rebuild the foundation. it takes almost just as long to ‘build’ a flat OTTB from the ground up, IMHO.

[Twigster]

My very first OTTB experience was an ex-chaser, and while she was an amazing jumper and eventer, she was not an easy ride over fences. I was just a kid when I started riding her, and had way more bravery than sense, and a trainer who was far too good for me (if only he was still around ) and i still remember the challenges like it was yesterday. But mostly the fun. That mare had the most amazing gallop!

Viney this is for you: she was by Foreign Exchange, out of an Air Hero X Zev mare. They don’t make them like that anymore.

I would have to agree with everything Beowulf said about working with someone who really knows their stuff. Just like retraining flat racers, this is a really specific skill set.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8791629]
having ridden ex-hurdlers and chasers, and having been in a program that retrains them, it is not something i would want to do alone and uninformed. certainly not something i’d want to do for the ‘first time’ without being in a program with a trainer that has done it themselves.

the plus side is, you have a horse who already understands the fundamentals of the job, which is ‘Jump Big Things’.

but you have to rebuild the foundation. it takes almost just as long to ‘build’ a flat OTTB from the ground up, IMHO.[/QUOTE]

Did you live and ride in Europe? Over her there is no difference between
“hurdle” and “chaser”.

For a number of years now the NSA (National Steeplechase As) has been using “uniform” hurdle jumps at every meet. They are basically roll tops 30" deep, 30" high with 23 inches of plastic “brush” above, set behind. It is cover with a foam mat with a white “ground line” painted at the bottom.

Actually in this country (US) they are not taught to “Jump Big Things”. If you want the horse to have a chance of winning we teach them to jump low and long, hurdle the fence just above the 30 inch solid part and “brush” threw the 23 inches of brush.

It’s not rocket science to change their form over a fence if one has a solid understanding of the fundamentals. Depends on the horse and how long a career it had over hurdles. Some make the transition to jump more from the base and “round” over the jump faster than others. Some the “hurdle form” is very ingrained.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Hunter’s Rest;8791315]
JLeeG I believe is talking US 'chasers which are hurdlers. They most certainly do teach US jump race horses to jump! The flat trajectile comes from speed and the type of obstacle. Most (not all but most) hurdlers go on to useful careers over timber (and sport/hunt/show/event) because they are taught to jump methodically and sensibly.
I’ve worked 40+ years in the (US) industry for the nation’s best trainers (plus had my own and train/ed for clients) and this is my experience.
As said above, Tb’s are generally smart, so even if a horse is just crammed down over a few sheep hurdles then sent to the racecourse (overseas), they’re smart, well built athletes. I’d estimate 98 % will re-make into wonderful sport jumpers.
What Viney says is exactly correct in European vernacular - 'chase = big stiff stuffed brush hedges (Cheltenham Gold Cup/Aintree Grand National the best known) and hurdles = smaller, leaning sheep hurdles designed to jump as a ‘stride’, not as a jump. Like a human hurdle race where the athlete’s body doesn’t rise, just the legs.
But in the US, we use the term interchanably. Hurdles = 'chase here. If you’re talking timber over here, you say timber.[/QUOTE]

This person knows what she is talking about. She was also a pretty darn good jump jock in her day also.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=weixiao;8791574]
From the OP’s post above yours it looks like she is in the UK (that’s where the mare is based, too, from my google) and when she means hurdling she means hurdling as they have it there: the fences are about 3’6 brush and very flexible so the horses usually jump through them. It is a faster pace than steeple chasing, lower fences, and the horses are encouraged to go flat through or across the jumps as quickly as possible. This is different than steeplechase and timber.[/QUOTE]

To clarify; Timber is an American style of “Steeplechase” racing. The only place in the world. A series of Timber races was tried I think in the early 90s in England. Didn’t get enough traction and was dropped.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8796425]
Did you live and ride in Europe? Over her there is no difference between
“hurdle” and “chaser”.

For a number of years now the NSA (National Steeplechase As) has been using “uniform” hurdle jumps at every meet. They are basically roll tops 30" deep, 30" high with 23 inches of plastic “brush” above, set behind. It is cover with a foam mat with a white “ground line” painted at the bottom.

Actually they are not taught to “Jump Big Things”. If you want the horse to have a chance of winning we teach them to jump low and long, hurdle the fence just above the 30 inch solid part and “brush” threw the 23 inches of brush.

It’s not rocket science to change their form over a fence if one has a solid understanding of the fundamentals. Depends on the horse and how long a career it had over hurdles. Some make the transition to jump more from the base and “round” over the jump faster than others. Some the “hurdle form” is very ingrained.[/QUOTE]
I’ve ridden both, from US and across the pond. There is a difference between US chasers and UK chasers. FTR, they do jump big things - chasers are different than hurdlers, which jump smaller things. i’m assuming OP is not talking about a US chaser, she is talking about a UK one…

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8796441]
I’ve ridden both, from US and across the pond. There is a difference between US chasers and UK chasers. FTR, they do jump big things - chasers are different than hurdlers, which jump smaller things. i’m assuming OP is not talking about a US chaser, she is talking about a UK one…[/QUOTE]

"they do jump big things"

I edited my comment to say “in this country”.

Curious, who did you ride for in this country? Been in the jumps game (US) all my life we might have met. Know a few over there also.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Jleegriffith;8791244]
That has not been my experience at all. I have retrained seven chasers in the past few years along with lots and lots of flat racers and I find the chasers so darn easy. I don’t know if it is because they have had good trainers but around here all the trainers do so much cross training with them. Most go to jumper shows, learn to jump grids, go xc, hack out, school xc and more. I don’t find them to be quick or flat in terms of jumping. They also do more flatwork with them than the track horses get and they don’t pound them quite as much in terms of actual running.

I love them and seek them out. My personal horse ran a few times over fences and is a lovely jumper.[/QUOTE]

“I have retrained seven chasers in the past few years”

What were their names? I would like to look up their form for educational purposes. Most likely I would know them and have seen them race. Big fan of jump racing.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8796457]
"they do jump big things"

I edited my comment to say “in this country”.

Curious, who did you ride for in this country? Been in the jumps game (US) all my life we might have met. Know a few over there also.[/QUOTE]

I never said I raced them… I’ve retrained them. I don’t have Jlegriffith’s extensive experience but in my experience with the handful I’ve retrained it’s a mixed bag on if it’s easier or not than a flat horse. Depends on their training before you get them. I can say one of them was the most challenging horse I ever rode/retrained.

[vineyridge]

Viney this is for you: she was by Foreign Exchange, out of an Air Hero X Zev mare. They don’t make them like that anymore.

And was she Miss Hipnotic? I’m drooling. Foaled in Virginia with one start, unplaced. But I’m not sure that the JC was keeping records on jumps racers back in 1980 or so. There have been and, I believe, still are lots of jumps races that don’t quite fall under the normal sanctioning bodies.