Experienced dog breeders: I could use some suggestions.

[Kyzteke]

My gal should be whelping early in April. Of course I will attend (she is a maiden…or whatever they call it in the dog world ;)), but I need to pinpoint the time.

A breeder told me there is a very accurate way to predict whelping based on taking a temp, but it was during a phone call and I don’t recall all the details. I just know it involved taking the bitch’s temp afew days in a row.

Anyone has details on this? Are there other ways?

Also, I’ve purchased afew books on dog breeding (with the emphasis on whelping & neonatal care); both books by Myra Savant-Harris RN and one called “the Complete Book of Dog Breeding” by Dan Rice, DVM.

Any other really good ones to recommend?

And it has been suggested I x-ray the female at about 54 days. I already know she has at least 2 pups – I saw them using my ultrasound at 32 days. There may be more, but the point is I know there is not one “biggie” that will cause issues.

Pros & cons of an x-ray?

Thanks! It’s funny after all these years of breeding horse to be a beginner at the breeding game again…

[Tom_King]

Lots of cons on the xray. We don’t, and have known plenty to be fooled by them. You can feel when there is another one in there. Pam does keep a temp chart, and I’ve never seen it fail to predict.

Google finds plenty: http://www.debbiejensen.com/temp_chart.html

[Marshfield]

Honestly, temperature taking really bites as a whelping predictor. I actually consider it worthless. I don’t even harass my girls with it any more. The idea is that they go down to the low 98 range and then once normalized, puppies within 24 hours. The drop in progesterone that triggers whelping drops the temperature.

I had two girls go to 97.2 and then whelp three days later. On their due date.

If you want a due date, you need to do progesterone testing. Due date is 63 days from ovulation, +/- 1 day. I have had a girl go 60 days from ovulation with a large litter. When they look at you like your a crazy woman for offering food, whelping is pending.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Tom King;8072413]
Lots of cons on the xray. We don’t, and have known plenty to be fooled by them. You can feel when there is another one in there. Pam does keep a temp chart, and I’ve never seen it fail to predict.

Google finds plenty: http://www.debbiejensen.com/temp_chart.html[/QUOTE]

Great site! Thanks so much. Lots of good info. We did do progesterone testing and I have confirmed date(s) of ovulation. However from all the research I’ve been doing it seems you can still have a span of several days in which the bitch can whelp.

Well, at least it’s not several MONTHS like a mare…

[Anne_FS]

I’ve had the temperature drop be a good indicator, but I’m not so gung-ho on recommending it because IME then owners tend to be constantly taking the temperature of the poor expectant mama dog. I always feel sorry for them about that. :eek:

Another less invasive sign is the vulva will soften. Kind of like the difference in touching your nose vs. touching your lips. You’ll be able to see it.

[Houndhill]

I do the X-ray to count puppies, because with the wolfhounds, it isn’t so easy to palpate and know whether there is another one in there. Last time, we did an ultrasound at 28 days, had 4 puppies with heartbeats, and did the X-ray at Day 58 and there was only one large puppy, so we decided to do an elective C-section (wolfhounds often do not find one puppy sufficient to initiate labor).

We figure the due date from ovulation as best we can figure from progesterone testing and LH testing when we can. I also do the temperature thing and have found it to be accurate. My girls don’t mind it, they are so large, and they know the beep means they get a treat.

I have many books on whelping, but have found the breed- specific ones to be the most helpful, as many IWs have apparently not read the more general texts.

If you are not experienced with your breed, is there a friend who could help you? Or have you considered the Whelpwise service?

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8072423]
Honestly, temperature taking really bites as a whelping predictor. I actually consider it worthless. I don’t even harass my girls with it any more. The idea is that they go down to the low 98 range and then once normalized, puppies within 24 hours. The drop in progesterone that triggers whelping drops the temperature.

I had two girls go to 97.2 and then whelp three days later. On their due date.

If you want a due date, you need to do progesterone testing. Due date is 63 days from ovulation, +/- 1 day. I have had a girl go 60 days from ovulation with a large litter. When they look at you like your a crazy woman for offering food, whelping is pending.[/QUOTE]

That is so interesting!

What did the temps do after hitting 97.2? I have always heard, they will gradually increase until whelping occurs. If that is true, your bitches’ increase must have been glacial!!

I have kept graphs of my bitches’ temps, and they have behaved as they were supposed to. But in other ways, they have diverged from expected, so it is good to know in what ways they will diverge!

[shayaalliard]

My favorite female was saved by x-ray. She was a petite 12 pounds and had 7 puppies in there. Puppy number 7 got stuck and momma just shut down. She was acting 100% normal and I couldn’t feel anything, but I knew there were supposed to be 7 so off to the vet we go. Emergency c-section, puppy died, but momma lived. I would not have known without the xray until a couple days leter when she would have been really really sick.

That same momma ate like a pig right up to 10 minutes before whelping- in fact the vet thought there might more more than 1 stuck because she was so full of food.

I do take temps. I find them helpful but not 100%. I look for intermittent panting as my first sign. Once they add scratching I know puppies will be here in a couple hours.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8074638]
That is so interesting!

What did the temps do after hitting 97.2? I have always heard, they will gradually increase until whelping occurs. If that is true, your bitches’ increase must have been glacial!!

I have kept graphs of my bitches’ temps, and they have behaved as they were supposed to. But in other ways, they have diverged from expected, so it is good to know in what ways they will diverge![/QUOTE]

They were still down 24 hours later and then I stopped tormenting them. They slept next to me for a few nights before getting down to business. I don’t ever have to be separated from a late term bitch. One whelped at home. The other whelped next to me in my office.

A friend of mine still checks and all it usually gets her is some extra sleepless nights. A pregnant corgi fits just fine in bed with me and DH. Nesting behavior will wake me up.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;8074579]

If you are not experienced with your breed, is there a friend who could help you? Or have you considered the Whelpwise service?[/QUOTE]

I do have an experienced breeder fairly close to me who will help should I need it. She is about 30 mins away, but luckily, you have more time w/dogs than with mares (before things get super ugly).

Never heard of Whelpwise…

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8074984]
They were still down 24 hours later and then I stopped tormenting them. [/QUOTE]

Well, compared to labor, I don’t think taking a temp is going to be a big deal.

Per the link Tom King posted, you are only suppose to take the temp 2x per day. I think my gal can survive that.

And the fact that she normally sleeps right next to my pillow or under the covers should help.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=shayaalliard;8074687]
My favorite female was saved by x-ray. She was a petite 12 pounds and had 7 puppies in there. [/QUOTE]

Holy smoke!! SEVEN pups in a 12 lb dog?!?!?!:eek:

What breed was she?

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8075565]
I do have an experienced breeder fairly close to me who will help should I need it. She is about 30 mins away, but luckily, you have more time w/dogs than with mares (before things get super ugly).

Never heard of Whelpwise…[/QUOTE]

Whelpwise is a service that rents you a Doppler ultrasound probe and uterine contraction monitor. It can detect changes in the puppies’ heart rates that might indicate fetal distress, so you can get help, and maybe go for a C-section before you lose the puppies. The information is transmitted over the phone lines. I believe they also give you instructions about if and when to use oxytocin and perhaps calcium injections.

I haven’t used it but friends have, and have appreciated the service:

http://www.whelpwise.com/

[Kyzteke]

^^^^^Thanks Donna!! I’ll check it out.

[gsdlover]

I just whelped a litter of 10 german shepherds late on Wednesday the 25th. She went at day 60 from the first mating. I normally let the bitches behavior tell me when she’ll whelp. Once I see this behavior I take the temp to confirm, it was 97.4.
I’ve found it’s about a 24-48 hour ordeal from the very first signs of labor to when the last pup is born. Early Tuesday night she felt the need to sleep in bed with me at my head, panting all night. She needed to be near her mama, very common. Wednesday during the day lots of hiding, digging, panting, then trying to go the the bathroom. Once she is frequently trying to go “potty”, to the whelping box we go, and the pups start being born shortly after.
An X-ray before whelping is good if you can barely tell they’re pregnant, or think it’ll be a small litter, or have a specific medical concern. Sometimes you get an accurate count in those cases. I like to X-ray the next day to make sure there are no pups left inside. The Debbie Jensen site is a really great reference! Like someone else said know your breed specific whelping concerns. Enjoy your pups!

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8075581]
Well, compared to labor, I don’t think taking a temp is going to be a big deal.

Per the link Tom King posted, you are only suppose to take the temp 2x per day. I think my gal can survive that.

And the fact that she normally sleeps right next to my pillow or under the covers should help.[/QUOTE]

It just didn’t narrow down the window of waiting at all. So, since it clearly wasn’t providing any useful knowledge, I don’t bother. I always progesterone test, one bitch was co-owned, so I humored her other mom by checking her temp. Won’t bother anymore. My tech could walk to my hospital and will come in the middle of the night if I need a c-section. A breeder friend lives twenty minutes away; I’ve gone in in the middle of the night so she didn’t have to go to the e-clinic (was just a friend not one of her veterinarians then) and she’ll come revive puppies for me if I call.

[shayaalliard]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8075585]
Holy smoke!! SEVEN pups in a 12 lb dog?!?!?!:eek:

What breed was she?[/QUOTE]
Pug

[Tom_King]

We take the temp first thing in the morning as the bitch is just getting up, and last thing at night after they’ve been laying around waiting to go to bed. I hold the dog, Pam takes the temp, and the girls quickly learn to relax and expect it. The only time we’ve seen the temp drop days before it should, and then go back up is most likely when a placenta has detached early, but that was just a guess after having a stillborn puppy when that happened. I expect we’ve had sixty some litters over the years, and have been taking temps for enough years that I forget how many.

Of course, the girl is still watched closely anyway, but it does help planning other stuff. We don’t like to subject them to more xrays than absolutely necessary.

www.StarbornHavanese.com