Explain this colour …. And why I thought I wanted to start colts again?

[Blueeyedroan]

Been out of the colt starting game for 5 years and have been happily (horse) injury free for 5 years.
Well I must have forgotten the physical pain, mental fatigue, and general frustration of problem colt starting. Because this THING somehow ended up in my trailer at the end of the long weekend. Chuted in - of course.

Advertised as 4 years old and halterbroke. He’s neither of those things.
Feral, off the reserve. Ended up at a ranch with a few young horses from the band. Cowboy came out and said , they were keeping the good ones that are coming along - to work on the ranch. Said he wasn’t a good one. Wished me luck and said he has a “hard mind”. They couldn’t touch him behind the neck, and don’t take off the 30’ rope he has dangling off him.

Who am I to think I can take on a reject from not only the reserve , but a cowboy reject too.
I don’t - honestly.
But he was skinny. And he was scared. So into the trailer he went.
Unloaded straight into the round pen of my kind (but not enthused) BO.

I’ve managed to deworm him, get his front feet picked up and trimmed (my farrier is brave as they come and ropes were used ).
Looked at those teeth …. 6-8 years old. NOT a baby.

What colour would you call this fellow ? True to my username…. Both eyes are blue.

Say hello to Snag.

[SusanO]

I would worry about squamous cell carcinomas with all that pink skin on his face and the blue eyes, but aside from that he looks like a well put together animal. And feet look good. Depends how much time and patience and skill you have. Worth a shot if you have done this before.

[JB]

His color is chestnut

His pattern is some sort of White (aka Dominant White), and possibly a Splash in there as well. But some W patterns can cause that sort of face white.

If you want to know what white pattern(s) exactly, you can do a white color panel test
https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/panel/white-pattern-panel-2

[Blueeyedroan]

I’ve done it lots before. Which is why I’m asking myself… what the actual heck was I thinking. Starting colts is one thing. Starting ferals, that have been BUCKED OUT (forgot to mention that) is a whole different ball game. These critters are quick to strike, kick, bite, and stomp whatever touches them. They didn’t survive this long out there being soft and sweet.
They make the grittiest, sturdiest mountain horses you will ever sit on if you can get them broke. If you can get one to trust you and really click with them, you have an incredible team mate that will look aftr you in the most dire and dangerous situations.
Almost like a mule, but faster.

IF you don’t die trying to get them broke.

[Blueeyedroan]

Definitely chestnut with some sort of white modifier.
Everyone keeps calling him “roan” and i’m like no… definitely not. He has roan-ING but he is not a “roan”. He does not have the dark legs and dark face of a true roan, as well as having a lighter flaxen mane and tail.
Isn’t that referred to as “sabino” in paints? Or “varnish” in appaloosas?

Sorry, I don’t know much about colour. My favorite colour is SOUND. Haha.

[Christa_P]

Could he roan on a pinto base? Maybe pinto x appaloosa? Just a guess.

[JB]

Yes, roanING, but no, not Roan. Several of the White pattersn do that roanING thing, like W5 in the Puchilingui line

I tried to see how much I could zoom in on his body pic, but the angle’s just not right to see if the tail head has any white hairs. It’s possible he’s also got some rabicano going on

He does have a dark head, relative to his “roany” areas, though while that’s almost always the case with a true Roan, sometimes they do get roaning into their head as well

@Blueeyedroan

Isn’t that referred to as “sabino” in paints? Or “varnish” in appaloosas?

Not sure what “that” is you’re referring to - the roanING aspect of this?

Sabino 1 (SB1) is a testable gene and is usually about normal white markings, but can also produce some level of ticking (roaning) on the barrel

Varnish is due to the LP gene, and is a progressive modifier, even if it’s very slow

[JB]

@Christa_P

Could he roan on a pinto base?

Depends on your definition of “pinto”

He’s not true Roan, he doesn’t have any of the qualifying characteristics, including inverted Vs on the fronts of his front legs. He IS, technically, pinto, since he’s got enough white on his head and belly. The question is which gene(s) is causing it. It’s not Tobiano or Frame though.

His eye and nostril skin isn’t mottled, which is a sign there’s no LP, so no varnish.

[Bay_Toby]

In the Paint horse world, he’d be called a sorrel overo.

[JB]

Yes, definitely Overo, since that really means “white spots not from Tobiano” (or appaloosa)

[walktrot]

Sorrel Sabino. He may or may not have the Sb1 gene. My 1994 Paint gelding was regitered as a sorrel overo. When I had his genes analyzed after the SB1 gene was identified he didn’t have it. APHA registered Paints that obviously were not Tobiano as Overo. That was before Sabino and Splashed White were identified as distinct patterns. APHA registers them now as Sabino Overo. Genes involving white colors and patterns are extremely complex. If you have his genes tested they will tell you which Dominant White genes are present. They can produce the sabino without the Sb gene. Roaning is part of the definition of the sabino pattern.

You could go nuts trying to identify Paint colors by looking at a photo. I did. This is Speckles, registered as Mr Eternal Fun, age 27 enjoying retirement. I had to put him down a couple of years ago.

Sabino pattern (Wikipedia)

[JB]

@walktrot

APHA registers them now as Sabino Overo.

This is one of the biggest issues with a lot of registries who make up their own rules for colors/patterns, which don’t align with the actual genetics. It’s much more correct to call a non-Tobiano “Overo” than it is to say Sabino. The former is at least acknowledging it’s not (obviously) Tobiano, but the latter is using a known white gene to say something generic/unknown

@walktrot

They can produce the sabino without the Sb gene.

Sabino1 is the only known and testable sabino gene. They named it Sabino 1 because they assumed they’d find more eventually, but so far, no. Saying something is “sabino” just because it fits a currently recognized Sabino1 pattern, isn’t correct. There are multiple White genes which can produce the “same” white markings that SB1 can, and in combinations can produce all white horses just like SB1/SB1 can, but it’s not correct to call them Sabino.

Puchilingui was called Sabino for a very long time until we knew better

That Wiki page is misleading at best, saying things like " The known causes of the sabino patterns are the SB-1 allele and several other dominant white (W) alleles on the KIT gene" because Sabino isn’t W5 isn’t rabicano, especially since rabicano often puts some to a large amount of ticking on the flanks and barrel, just like the article says

" Some sabinos have patches of roan patterning on part of the body, especially the barrel and flanks"

It’s just incorrect and misleading to group a genetically known set of genes that happen to be able to produce similar phenotypes (but they don’t always) and call them the same thing

It’s bad enough that people in the stock horse world equate Overo to Frame. Overo is a category that is defined as “not tobiano” and includes Frame, among everything else that isn’t Tobi. Frame is a very specific white pattern gene.

[RedHorses]

My guess is rabicano causing the roaning.

[JB]

There may be some rabicano there, but rab doesn’t go forward of the barrel. This is as extreme a rabicano as I’ve seen, and he also has some other white pattern that may be boosting it

Also, when it gets this heavy, it seems to like to cause some striping along the barrel. That example has it, and here are some others

[RedHorses]

Oh, sorry. I didn’t realize we were supposed to explain why we made the guess we did. Not that we’ll ever know unless OP bothers with testing.

OP’s horse’s roaning is all behind the shoulder. He has the white sides on the top of his tail as well.

My minimally expressed rabicano has the vertical stripes on his barrel. They’re most obvious at a certain stage of his winter coat growth when the white hairs are long enough to connect the stripes, and before they get lost in the abundance of longer hair. It’s really neat to see.

[JB]

@RedHorses

OP’s horse’s roaning is all behind the shoulder. He has the white sides on the top of his tail as well.

In my comment above I mentioned rabicano might be there, but from the 1 side pic it’s too hard to tell if the tail hairs are white, or if that’s just natural flaxen lightening.

There’s no test for rabicano Yes, it could be there, but I explained why it’s not all rabicano. He does have some roaning/ticking on his right shoulder/neck area as seen in the front view, though I have no idea if it’s also as marked up as the left side

[OverandOnward]

He’s a super-cool, interesting, pretty color. That’s good for me, I’ve given up trying to understand the genetics.

Please post updates of his life journey. And more photos, from every angle. Good luck with Snag!

[Blueeyedroan]

UPDATE : Snag has found a new home.
Got him actually halterbroke, dewormed him, got his front hooves trimmed for the first time in his life ( I can pick up the backs but not safe for farrier yet) and got some weight on him.

Lady came to pick up a saddle I had for sale, ended up selling her the horse.

Happy ending for horse, no broken bones or extra board payments for me. Everyone is happy!