Family member animal hoarding

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

I know this may not be what you want to hear, OP, but has the family considered having this family member declared mentally incompetent so someone can gain power of attorney? With that, you’d (I think) have the legal power to remove animals and get others vet care.

As someone else mentioned, you should check the zoning laws in your area, and see what the limit is on the number of animals that can be on a certain amount of acreage.

I’ve seen enough hoarding shows to know that there is no way to reason with them, and even if they finally break down and say they understand - they don’t. They’re just buying time for you to turn your back so they can acquire more ___.

I really feel that it’s going to take the entire family descending en masse on this relative and forcibly taking the animals to get the results you want. Of course, they will go right out and find more, but that will be more controllable. As the animals come in, you rehome them. Will they be happy? No. Oh well.

[Annie10]

If you can’t or won’t gradually start spiriting away an animal or two here and there then I agree with calling animal control or whatever agency you have in your area to address this. As others have said. Hoarding is a mental
Illness. They usually start very well meaning and get in over they heads fairly quickly. That coupled with the other issues your relative is having does not make for a good situation for anyone, least of all the animals

[OverandOnward]

@FjordBCRF

This sounds good in theory, but it rarely if ever works.

In your experience.

I know of more than one situation where it has worked.

[OverandOnward]

@usernameTaken

I saw moments when it seemed like it wasn’t working, but she would come around and be ok with whatever eventually - selling a horse, moving a horse to a new stall, any change could set her off and just as quickly she’d come back and be ok with it.

This is a great example of the most important thing. The biggest mistake can be to think that any point is the last word by the owner. That the operation is stuck and can’t go on from there,

Sometimes true. But sometimes there is a strong possibility that things can move forward again. Even in a matter of a couple of hours, in the right situation, with the right situation handling.

@Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom

I know this may not be what you want to hear, OP, but has the family considered having this family member declared mentally incompetent so someone can gain power of attorney? With that, you’d (I think) have the legal power to remove animals and get others vet care.

It can be excruciatingly difficult to get an outside authority to declare someone mentally incompetent, and force power of attorney on to someone else. Sometimes it just can’t be done.

What might be possible, with the help of an attorney well versed in similar matters, is to pursue the welfare of the animals in civil court. Try to get a force change of ownership that way, or just gain legal access to rectifying the problems. Not sure if that is allowed in all jurisdictions. They might kick you back to the AC. But it would be worth the price of an hour of attorney time to get information/opinion.

[OverandOnward]

@Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom

I really feel that it’s going to take the entire family descending en masse on this relative and forcibly taking the animals to get the results you want.

I agree, based on life experience with issues of this kind. That was the point of my original post. Finding a way to take control, regardless.

Yes, it can be horrendously upsetting for everyone – at the time. But once mental decline reaches a certain point, this upset moment won’t last long. Months at the most. Then they forget even more.

Things will continue to change. And change. Sometimes slowly, somtimes more quickly.

My grown sibs and I had to covertly and with stealth remove all of the booze, firearms and driveable vehicles from my easily-enraged dad, one at a time. In the old days there would have been epic atomic explosions with a mushroom cloud rising up through the roof over his head. When the time actually came, he never said a word. Listened to the lame explanations we presented and never asked. Never came back to the subject ‘when did you say the truck would be back from repair?’ Times had changed, indeed.

[FjordBCRF]

@OverandOnward

In your experience.

Statistically. Nothing to do with my experience.

[MsM]

One approach might be to contact animal rescues specific to the species you would like to help first. I would show photos of the animals and conditions (without identifying person or location at this point). Then tell CR that you would like to “sell” a few of the animals to a “good home” and you would handle it all. Then remove the animals to the rescue and repeat with as many other species as you can. Whittling down CRs numbers and not overwhelming the rescue resources all at once may help. I also would personally disappear any small animals I could that I could place somehow.

But ultimately, his/her mental illness will have to be addressed

[2DogsFarm]

I’ve had 2 personal experiences with Hoarders.

One was a working RN who had way too many dogs & cats. She presented a competent face to her workplace & to friends, but as things deteriorated & her circumstances came to light, it was evident animals needed to be removed. Apologies, as this was so long ago I forget the exact manner it was achieved, I do recall Social Services & AC intervened.

Second case was a close friend of 30+ years who gradually let her tendency to hoard devolve.
She’d always been an Impulse shopper, buying for herself & others to excess.
When it spread to her workplace (high pressure advertising sales) - her desk was invisible under the clutter - she lost the job.
At home her small 1BR condo was so filled with purchases (many still in bags) & in such disarray it resembled a scene from the Hoarders reality show.
Oddly, her neatfreak husband lived in this without any attempt to help. He had his closet, his space on the bathroom counter, kept neatly & the rest of the space in all rooms was impassable with clutter.
When he went out of town, I spent a weekend trying to help her go through the mess. I had to argue with her to discard unopened mail that was years old, throw out things obviously unusable. All we succeeded in doing in 2 days was to clear off a large coffee table & the dining room table.
They had 3 cats & while clearing the coffee table I realized what I’d thought was sand on it was, in fact, kitty litter.
The sad semblance of Order we achieved didn’t last a week.
She was an intelligent woman, aware of the issue, even hired professional organizers on two occasions. But without following through, with or without assistance, nothing changed.

OP, you are going to have to forget trying to do this nicely to advocate for the animals.
Consult a lawyer as to how to get control so you can proceed in the quickest way possible.
Be prepared for family to not back you up or help.
But for the sake of the animals & CR’s physical & mental wellbeing, be the Bad Guy.
Come here for support as things unfold, both for useful advice & for a cyber-shoulder to lean on.

[red_mares]

I would call Adult Protective Services before animal control. As mention ACOs are often shady. No animals involved, but I called APS on my mother’s friend. It was a much needed kick in the pants to those involved that things needed to change. Like 2Dogs mentioned above, someone needed to be the bad guy. My mother was medical POA for the woman, but ‘didn’t want to upset her.’

Have you heard the quote in Harry Potter “There comes a time when you will have to chose between doing what is right and doing what is easy.”? I found out Mom will do what is easy, not what is right.

Pony issues came after Jackie issues. The old man we’d kept horses at was going down hill. Board was cheap ($150) so Mom was never going to find another place at that price, and wouldn’t do the right thing on her own. I knew of a nicer barn with higher board. I ended up telling her it was an Old Lady Special or some other BS, so her board would be $180 a month. It was an increase, but a manageable increase. I paid the other half under the table. BO and I agreed not to tell her. She was happy, pony was cared for and all was good.

Eventually, I got the pony when she couldn’t manage. The board bill wasn’t the issue, but doing anything for herself and the pony at the same time was out of the question. She could go to PT or call a vet in a given week, but not both.

[FjordBCRF]

@2DogsFarm

She was an intelligent woman, aware of the issue, even hired professional organizers on two occasions. But without following through, with or without assistance, nothing changed.

OP, you are going to have to forget trying to do this nicely to advocate for the animals.

This right here. My exMIL was a stuff hoarder, but my ex husband never really recognized it for what it was until we were at the verge of divorce. She lived in about squalor when I first met him, but we didn’t visit her home very often.

He had gone to visit at her house and finally let himself acknowledge the issue and brought it up to me. He didn’t like what I had to say, which was that hoarding is a mental issue, he couldn’t help her, and that she had to help herself. I knew he wasn’t going to listen to me so I told him to call his very good social worker friend, which thankfully he did. She said the exact same thing that I did, but with even more emphasis that him trying to clean would be wasted effort.

Don’t ever know how that shook out, but I can guess. I am very thankful it was just stuff and not animals.

@red_mares

I would call Adult Protective Services before animal control.

I never thought of this, that might be very worth the call.

[Amberley]

@OverandOnward

My grown sibs and I had to covertly and with stealth remove all of the booze, firearms and driveable vehicles from my easily-enraged dad, one at a time. In the old days there would have been epic atomic explosions with a mushroom cloud rising up through the roof over his head. When the time actually came, he never said a word. Listened to the lame explanations we presented and never asked. Never came back to the subject ‘when did you say the truck would be back from repair?’ Times had changed, indeed.

Very similar experience, when an elderly person unfortunately starts to regress to being more like a child you have to step in and be the adult. I really put my foot down and forced some changes against everyone’s wishes and a year later they were all very glad I did. There were tears and phone calls from other relatives saying to let it go and I ignored it all and gently bullied them into doing the right thing. Dementia is not mental illness like normal hoarding, it’s an organic brain deterioration, and at some point you have to take over the person’s life.

A call to Adult Protective Services or the local equivalent will be very helpful. They will tell you what you can and cannot do, even if they can’t help. Pushing the person to see a doctor and get a diagnosis is absolutely key btw, that should be an immediate focus. Someone should attend if possible and the family should tip the doctor off about the concerns ahead of time. If they have an Alzheimer’s or other dementia diagnosis many legal doors will open up to helping them.

[Bicoastal]

OP, my heart swells for you, CR, and the animals stuck in this situation.

I don’t think this has been said yet, so I wish to caution: please do not suddenly remove all animals. The relapse rate is at least 50%, higher when removed by force and the person does not participate in the process. Everything you have shared is stereotypical hoarding disorder; CR will replenish and further isolate, making matters worse.

There are no clear, winning answers here. It seems the usual course is hoarder becomes more isolated, conditions worsen, until the person loses their home, is hospitalized, or dies.

If this was treated like an addiction, and everyone stopped helping, would that force CR to downsize? Or nothing will help until the mental health disorder is treated? Which is extraordinarily unusual.

So many hugs

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2583418/

[Bicoastal]

@Amberley

Dementia is not mental illness like normal hoarding

That’s an interesting question. To me, this sounds like classic hoarding disorder.

@BAY_WITH_CHROME

Over the years there’s been about 20 mammal deaths

“Over the years” led me to believe CR has always had hoarding tendencies.

[ParadoxFarm]

If your CR is breeding animals, (I don’t know what kind), can the breeder be sterilized/neutered/spayed/fixed? That would be a start.

I am very sorry you’re going through this. Watching someone going through mental issues is tough – but top it off with the animal situation, and it’s heartbreaking. Hugs.

[Red_Dust]

Ok, there is something wrong here. If the ACO is aquainted with CR and does not nudge (with a bulldozer) for CR to get help, how good a friend are they. And more importantly when the road apples hit the fan, how will they look professionally?!
Maybe that officer is the linchpin to an intervention.

CR seems to be experiencing a severe bout of depression of some sort. They need help.
The animals are the secondary symptom.
And I think the OP has reached a stage where the gentle hinting around with CR is no longer helping. Lay the cards on the table. That is bound to blow up in CR’s face. Then they will be the sad sack person in front of the judge and all the people who failed them along the line will just know how it all happened. And if the animals are up for sale, outsiders will see them, too.
A combined effort, perhaps perhaps, lightening the workload, getting CR the medical help they need.

[endlessclimb]

This is what I would do, personally.

I’d consider this relationship torched, maybe forever but at least for the time being.

First, I would talk with CR. Bluntly state - either the headcount goes down, or I’m leaving.

Then, I would contact Animal Control, despite their connection with CR, once - let them try to take any action that they can, or will. After that, I would be scouring the earth to find a media outlet to pick it up, as it seems like it could be a juicy story. Maybe some public shame would force a headcount reduction.

[Mosey_2003]

@Red_Dust

Ok, there is something wrong here. If the ACO is aquainted with CR and does not nudge (with a bulldozer) for CR to get help, how good a friend are they. And more importantly when the road apples hit the fan, how will they look professionally?!

Sadly, in my experience and hearing from others online, this is not unusual. What seems to be more unusual is having a really good ACO.

[cayuse]

Public pressure might help move things in the right direction depending on location. A concerned call on the QT to the local news channel may get the ball rolling and get eyes on the situation. I’d hate to be the one to do it, but I would.

ETA: endlessclimb beat me to it with that thought!

[OverandOnward]

One thing about hoarding problems, generally: The person is often unable to make big decisions, life decisions, because they feel utterly, constantly, overwhelmed. They are so stressed by the pressures, they can’t mentally get on top of a solution that will help them feel better.

Unfortunately, good feelings don’t come from the pile as much as from the next new thing. It’s adding something that makes them feel good. But then that good feeling doesn’t last because the problem just became bigger.

No wonder hoarding has been compared to drug addiction. The feel-good thing of adding something creates more stress from the pile, and another need for another hit.

Is it possible to keep re-setting CR’s good feelings to doing more for the animals already there? Asking daily if CR has seen to this, or done that, small tasks only, as a reminder to keep up with small points of care? Being praiseful for everything done today?

It also seems that true hoarders are not long-term thinkers. Rather, their focus is on their feelings about the here & now. So any proposed solution has a better chance if it centers on framing how CR can feel good about it right now.

As for reduction rationales that CR might buy, maybe re-homing one or a few animals at a time might be presented as a stress reliever in that moment. CR can feel better right now, because CR can focus more on the special needs of other animals. A feeling of renewal, as if CR actually acquired something new, in CR’s renewed focus on the animals already there. Maybe. Hopefully. That’s a lot of communications and coaching.

Finding a rationale that CR will buy into, that can be recycled again and again, might help some gradual reduction.

[OverandOnward]

But in the end – if mental decline is happening, keep in mind that CR’s grasp of the situation, and actions being taken, will reduce over time. Be aware that the way you are making decisions now may be able to change over time.

OP, if you can think back to times when there was a definite sudden mental step-down, you can start developing a timeline of the past to help you. Nothing is every completely predictable. But the larger picture will show an overall path.

If dementia / Alzheimers is part of the picture, there are sudden step-downs followed by an indefinite plateau where things seem stable. Over time, the plateaus gradually become shorter and the step-downs more frequent. It can go from years between step-downs, to partial years (such as 1 1/2 years). Then to months, etc.

Step-downs can happen as a result of a medical event. An illness or injury that greatly weakened the patient, and “they never really came all the way back”.

People around the patient (and the patient) tend to focus on each plateau as if this is the new reality, indefinitely. And it may be if it lasts for a significant amount of time. But don’t forget that eventually another step-down is coming.

It may help the solution formulation to keep in mind that CR’s present mental condition will not last forever. Future declines are coming. It just depends on how fast, and how severe is each one.