Fatty Fatty McFatterson (e.g. feeding the now metabolic horse)

[Alterration]

@CanteringCarrot

There are a variety of horses where I board, and I’d love to scope all of them and see what the results are (not gonna happen and I’m not going to actually do this!). It’d just be very interesting. I’ve seen a shiny, happy, in good weight (not a hard keeper) horse have grade 3 ulcers on a scope. They were just a touch girthy, and owner thought she was being “extra” about it, but it was a good thing that the horse was scoped. I’ve also seen a horse that should’ve been the poster child for ulcers not have any/scope clean. So I don’t think it’s always so straight forward based off of what we see on the outside.

Agreed. According to the Merck Veterinary model, 30% of all horses, but 60% of performance horses have them - https://www.merckvetmanual.com/horse-owners/digestive-disorders-of-horses/stomach-gastric-ulcers-in-horses#:~:text=Mild%20stomach%20ulcers%20are%20seen,90%)%20in%20race%20horses.

And from this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10093336/

The nutritional risk factors associated with ESGD have remained consistent since 2015. Specific risk factors include lower hay provision and consumption, lower meal number per day and higher grain and starch feeding [9,18,30,37,40,45,46]. Horses that had access to some pasture turnout were less likely to have ESGD, with horses turned out with other horses having a further decreased risk, in one study [40]. Conversely, pasture turnout was not found to be protective against ESGD in other populations [46,47]. Pasture provision likely plays a multifactorial role in disease pathophysiology that will be discussed later. Oral hypertonic electrolyte administration increases lesion number and severity of ESGD [48].

[FjordBCRF]

@CanteringCarrot

There are a variety of horses where I board, and I’d love to scope all of them and see what the results are (not gonna happen and I’m not going to actually do this!). It’d just be very interesting.

I totally agree it would be super interesting! A vet tech friend and I always talk about how cool it would be to easily and affordably get that kind of data just to know.

[PamnReba]

We have been fortunate to have a pasture full of lovely winter rye since late December/early January this winter. And with the weather still being fairly cool, it has persisted longer than it normally would. As a result, I didn’t need to feed any hay (good thing), but my QH mare ballooned (bad thing) after being on it 24/7 for a couple of months - and of course she also got a little ouchy on her fronts all of a sudden. Cue another Fatty McFatterson. So she is now sporting a grazing muzzle (I alternate about every two weeks between a Best Friend Have a Heart and a new GG, to prevent rubs) for her daily turn out time and then is kept in a stall/dry lot combo at night, sans muzzle. The hay I did not feed over the winter is now her night forage, two flakes (about six pounds) in a 2" small hole hay net. I usually put her up about 7 and feed her ration balancer, then put her hay net out around 10 at last check. All traces of hay are gone by morning, but I don’t have a camera out there and I’m not sure how quickly she is emptying it. Is there anything I should be doing differently?

Oh, and her feet are fine now - after two days of being in the muzzle and a few doses of Bute, she was back to a normal walk-trot gait, looking quite sound with no signs of being the least bit tender. I caught it quick, thankfully!

[EmilyM]

i would suggest doubling up his overnight haynet as a first step. i’ve had good luck with a net within one of those square smartpak nets. i have a fatty that gets that, and he whacks it against the wall to shake some loose and then eats the loose stuff on the ground. Keeps him busy and eating slowly. I assume you can’t restrict the outside hay due to the other horses?

alternatively, but expensive, you could try putting Triple crown safe starch forage in a net or one of those hay balls. low sugar, and they like the taste.

If that isn’t enough, you will have to soak. it stinks. i have one that can only have soaked hay, and i hate it but c’est la vie. IMHO, soaking gets quickest results. Partly because the hay isn’t as yummy, they slow down eating it as well, so less volume. At least that’s how it goes with mine.

[candyappy]

@Bogey2

I don’t understand why people think a horse needs hay 24/7 especially if they have a tendency to get fat. I have horses that don’t have hay in front of them at all times because I don’t want a barn full of metabolic horses. I have had a few fat Fjords come in over the years and immediately cut their hay consumption and gave them only a handful of ration balancer. They were fine. I am seeing a lot of horses out there that are metabolic at a young age, I feel bad for them because of the issues it causes like laminitis.
There I said it out loud and I am telling you I have never had a horse founder in my barn and none have any other problem because they don’t have hay in front of them all day. This is based on over 25 yrs of horse care and an old vet who guided me in this philosophy. My old horse live well into their late 20’s and are still in light work.

I don’t know when this philosophy came into being but it was never a practice when I started with horses or boarded. I have always fed ample hay 2x a day since 1976. No founders, no ulcers, no issues at all.

I have 2 horses now who struggle to stay slim. They just don’t need grass so I muzzle them. I would prefer keeping horses without pasture. So much easier to feed just what they need.

Somehow we are feeding our animals like we feed ourselves. Obese nation, obese animals

[candyappy]

@Alterration

It’s not that they need to stuff themselves, it’s that it’s been proven that after 4 hours of zero forage in their stomachs, they are at risk for developing ulcers. So finding ways of keeping some forage in their stomachs available is really important. I’d rather prevent ulcers than treat them.

This doesn’t hold true. How many people who own horses on here are having reoccurring ulcer issues despite horses having 24/7 access to forage?

[Alterration]

@candyappy

I have 2 horses now who struggle to stay slim. They just don’t need grass so I muzzle them. I would prefer keeping horses without pasture. So much easier to feed just what they need.

That’s all I have (dry lots) and it’s easier in some ways but heckin’ expensive in others. Feeding hay year round is a PITA.

@candyappy

I don’t know when this philosophy came into being but it was never a practice when I started with horses or boarded. I have always fed ample hay 2x a day since 1976. No founders, no ulcers, no issues at all.

It came to be when they found that 30% of all horses had ulcers, 60% of performance horses and 90% of racehorses. The symptoms were things like being girthy, pinning ears, bucking…most of which we as oldies did things like “elbowed them in the stomach” “swatted them with sticks” “kicked them forward and growled”.

I’ve owned horses since 1980, so just slightly less long. Horsekeeping has come a LONG way since then.

[candyappy]

@CanteringCarrot

Yes, seriously. You said that none of yours developed ulcers. Did you know that because you had them scoped? Or was it the conclusion you came to based off of behavior and appearance?

So now we are supposed to scope horses who show no ulcer symptoms??

[Alterration]

@candyappy

This doesn’t hold true. How many people who own horses on here are having reoccurring ulcer issues despite horses having 24/7 access to forage?

I haven’t seen a ton of that - but I would posit that they might have been an ulceration problem that started before the forage was provided. It’s STILL not a common practice to provide 24/7 forage, especially not at boarding barns.

And remember, it’s access, not “eat as much as you want”

Anyway - it’s a number of studies that show it, you can go argue with the scientists if you’d like.

[CanteringCarrot]

@candyappy

@CanteringCarrot

Yes, seriously. You said that none of yours developed ulcers. Did you know that because you had them scoped? Or was it the conclusion you came to based off of behavior and appearance?

So now we are supposed to scope horses who show no ulcer symptoms??

No. Did someone say that?

[candyappy]

@Alterration

It came to be when they found that 30% of all horses had ulcers, 60% of performance horses and 90% of racehorses. The symptoms were things like being girthy, pinning ears, bucking…most of which we as oldies did things like “elbowed them in the stomach” “swatted them with sticks” “kicked them forward and growled”.

I’ve owned horses since 1980, so just slightly less long. Horsekeeping has come a LONG way since then.

That may have a lot more to do with the stress of competing on a higher level? The problem is that many times it is not an ulcer issue but a behavioral one for the average owner and the first impulse now is to say it is ulcers.

[Alterration]

@candyappy

So now we are supposed to scope horses who show no ulcer symptoms??

I don’t think that’s the point - the point was the declaration that they didn’t have any was not provable if they hadn’t been scoped.

Horses are prey animals. They are going to be stoic in general until they can’t be anymore. That’s why we pay attention to these things now.

When you look at horses in the wild, they are constantly eating. What they are NOT eating are rich concentrates. They head from sparse grassy area to sparse grassy area, and their digestive system is built to process a lot of poor quality roughage. We know a lot about how an animal should eat from it’s digestive system.

[CanteringCarrot]

The other thing about ulcers, is that they can be linked to other conieirons and/or pain. If the horse has a condition that is uncomfortable, painful, and chronic, that can cause ulcers too.

So when treating ulcers, IMO, you have to consider the cause. Was it temporary stress such as a barn move? Was it due to another condition that was recently found/diagnosed? Was it lack of forage? Or sometimes, we just don’t quite know, we treat, the horse scopes clear, and that’s that.

[candyappy]

@CanteringCarrot

No. Did someone say that?

You did ( in a round about way) when you challenged @Bogey2 's comment about never having a horse with ulcers. If a horse is showing no symptoms or signs of ulcers why would anyone even think to scope them?

[Alterration]

@candyappy

That may have a lot more to do with the stress of competing on a higher level? The problem is that many times it is not an ulcer issue but a behavioral one for the average owner and the first impulse now is to say it is ulcers.

Look - I’m not a fan either of the “everything is pain” movement (and feed it turmeric!). Sometimes I think it can be an excuse for poor management, training, or handling.

We are subjecting our horses to “unnatural” stresses by keeping them at all. So it behooves us, no pun intended, to work on keeping them in a manner to help them deal with those stresses. When I get a horse in with behavioral issues (which I often do, because I’ve become the weirdo whisperer) I first address feet/tack etc. and then look at normal behaviors - have they had a chance to socialize with other horses - how much and what do they eat - do they even know how to socialize with other horses etc. etc. Often you can balance one stress, such as competition stress, by reducing other stresses, like providing access to more forage.

However, the access is super easy and fills a multitude of roles beyond just ulcer prevention. It’s a boredom buster. It’s a distraction from a busy environment. It’s mental stimulation. So there’s a whole host of positives to providing access (again, note the access) to forage.

I don’t have grass, so I have to provide hay in slow feed hay nets. That would mean my horses would have nothing to do outside but stand around attacking each other. Which is what they do when they run out of hay, I’ve seen it on the camera. The more dominant horses in the herd start chasing my poor underdogs around when the haybags are empty. They are bored, and take it out on each other. So - I could solve this in a number of ways - I could segregate them all, causing them to miss out on companionship and normal equine interaction (definitely on the table). Or I can put the hay in slower feed hay nets so that their time with each other remains happy and peaceful and they would still get to interact in a positive fashion.

With the assurety of constantly available hay, they go eat, they come back and nap, they go eat some more. There’s little aggression or problems. They all hang out together as one big happy herd.

[candyappy]

@Alterration

I don’t have grass, so I have to provide hay in slow feed hay nets. That would mean my horses would have nothing to do outside but stand around attacking each other. Which is what they do when they run out of hay, I’ve seen it on the camera. The more dominant horses in the herd start chasing my poor underdogs around when the haybags are empty. They are bored, and take it out on each other.

@Alterration

However, the access is super easy and fills a multitude of roles beyond just ulcer prevention. It’s a boredom buster. It’s a distraction from a busy environment. It’s mental stimulation. So there’s a whole host of positives to providing access (again, note the access) to forage.

I am not singling you out but I am just trying to say that this " newer" way of thinking is not the magic cure all and in fact is just not suited for all horses, especially the ones who are fat easily.

Food may mask some bullying and it obviously does in your herd but instead of keeping food in front of them it sounds like herd dynamics and maybe space are a factor in why some horses are being bullied.

I kept 5 horses on 2.5 acres of basically drylot. Fed 2x a day and the rest of the time they searched for stuff that might be edible. Never had an issue of bullying or boredom as they all got along( thankfully).

Even on pasture horses do a lot of standing around. They can only eat so much.

I am all for new and improved methods but sometimes the tried and true still works. Just have to find what works for us.

[Alterration]

@candyappy

I am not singling you out but I am just trying to say that this " newer" way of thinking is not the magic cure all and in fact is just not suited for all horses, especially the ones who are fat easily.

I get you - I agree that there’s no cure-all. Equine management just isn’t as simple as we wish it were.

Mine wasn’t fat easily until he all of a sudden was. Like - we went from svelte to POOF (I believe it was middle age that hit him…it hit me too with similar effects…stupid menopause).

So when I started this thread, I wanted to see if anyone had any other alternatives since the hay was such a big helper with keeping my herd peaceful and him from self-mutilating. I have 4 horses on I believe 1.8, so slightly less space but not by terribly much. It’s tough.

And believe me, I’m not taking any offense - I’m a pretty rational (if verbose) person, so I like to find good solutions!

[CanteringCarrot]

@candyappy

@CanteringCarrot

No. Did someone say that?

You did ( in a round about way) when you challenged @Bogey2 's comment about never having a horse with ulcers. If a horse is showing no symptoms or signs of ulcers why would anyone even think to scope them?

No. I did not. Just because you interpreted it that way, doesn’t mean I “said it in a round about way.”

If a horse is showing no symptoms of ulcers, you wouldn’t think to scope them. That doesn’t mean that they don’t have them. I did not know how that poster knew the horses didn’t have ulcers. So I asked. That’s all. They didn’t really answer in detail, from what I recall. If they would’ve said, “none were scoped, and I reached that conclusion based off of their outward physical health” and then went on to share what those markers were, then that would’ve been fair enough.

If you see that has a challenge then whatever. Not sure why you’re so defensive over it. It was a genuine question, which happens during a discussion.

[CanteringCarrot]

My personal view, that can be backed up with some evidence, is that you cannot always outwardly tell whether or not a horse has ulcers. If someone claims that they can, I am curious about which determining factors they are using. Maybe there is something in there that I haven’t considered.

If some horses go without forage for x amount of them and are fine, then they’re fine. My preference, even with easy keepers is to keep something in front of them, albeit limited in some capacity (net, double net, muzzle, grazer/feeder, etc). That, IMO, is what is best, and horses are grazers or trickle feeders. If you(g) don’t subscribe to that, then alright.

I form my opinions based on science, studies, or things that I’ve repeatedly seen and don’t talk out of my a**…usually

In case anyone is interested, here is an article, that includes references, about forage deprivation:

Forage Deprivation Keeps Horses Fat

[Alterration]

Really good article.

I’ve wondered about my fatty and the high cortisol question. He’s a type A horse, right now in a very type B world. It would probably be correct to say “he needs to go into heavy work to be happy”. He’s high anxiety naturally - when I first got him he would literally tap dance on the cross ties. He now cocks a foot etc. but I can’t help but think that I’ve fixed one problem only to cause a few others.

He also was boarded in situations that did not provide a lot of hay. Only what they would “clean up” in a few hours.

I rather think the equine obesity epidemic is related more to a lack of hard work than diet. I’d love to measure his cortisol levels after he works. I wonder if they get the same sort of endorphins that we do - it’s a stress reliever for us too. This study is interesting - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5301181/#:~:text=The%20previous%20studies%20on%20horses,increased%20[13%2C14].

It’s either that or teach him to meditate. Not sure if I’ll be successful in that regard (and that’s tongue in cheek)