FDA bad dog food

[Bombproof]

@Redemption3

Raw foods also has become quite popular though our dogs usually only carry 1% wolf DNA…

Actually, your dog shares more than 99% of its DNA with the gray wolf.
https://www.myfamilydnatest.com/how-much-of-your-dogs-dna-is-wolf/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dogs-99-percent-wolf/

Or if you want a more technical article:
https://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1706.full.html

This is not necessarily to say that a dog should be fed exactly like a wolf; it seems likely that dogs’ diets have evolved alongside our own to at least tolerate some of the same stuff we eat. Nevertheless, it’s likely that a dog would do just fine on a wolf diet.

[S1969]

@GoodTimes

Before everyone freaks out I’d like to point out a couple things.

1. The first thing I noticed is that many of these reported deaths are in older dogs. I’d be more alarmed if the majority of the affected dogs were only a couple of years old.
2. Affected dogs seemed to be eating grain free anywhere from a few months to a decade
3. Echo is relatively new in veterinary medicine, and is the only way to accurately diagnose DCM, other than a necropsy. Even in humans the image quality has improved tremendously in the last 20 years.

My take home is that the FDA is still just gathering information. Correlation does not equal causation. Correlation in many of these cases may even be a stretch.
Think back on the dogs you knew over your lifetime. How many were short of breath, and coughing, or presenting with other signs of heart failure before they died? Probably a good number of them. How many had an echo? Probably none or very few.
For all we know every dog in history who died after displaying symptoms of congestive heart failure (who hasn’t had an echo or a necropsy to confirm or deny) has had DCM.

Still too many unanswered questions to go changing food in an asymptomatic, healthy dog with little to no risk factors.

Well, yes - this is just still gathering information and there is not a cause - YET. But this is affecting breeds that have NEVER had histories of DCM and suddenly multiple cases are showing up where heart damage has already been done. Some are healthy dogs that are going in for routine pre-surgical checks and finding bloodwork anomalies; going back in for echo and seeing damage. And taurine deficiency has been identified in many cases, so there is likely to be a link to diet regardless of how long the dog has been eating its diet. Most likely there are other causes - genetics being a significant factor but not understood yet.

So yes, I think it’s too early to freak out. If I had been feeding a grain-free diet for no specific reason, though - I personally would switch to something else. Obviously if you have a specific reason to feed a grain-limited diet (e.g. a specific allergy) that is different. Most people have not allergy tested their dogs to know if there is a specific issue, though. The pressure to “feed a 5 star diet” was significant and lots of people felt they were bad owners if they fed Eukanuba or Purina.

All vets and dog breed clubs are looking at this right now; this isn’t a “follow the money” issue. The FDA report isn’t a study, so I don’t think it was funded, anyway.

[Sansena]

If you don’t think lobbyists have an impact on how the FDA spends its money, then you are being incredibly naive.

[GoodTimes]

@S1969

Well, yes - this is just still gathering information and there is not a cause - YET. But this is affecting breeds that have NEVER had histories of DCM and suddenly multiple cases are showing up where heart damage has already been done. Some are healthy dogs that are going in for routine pre-surgical checks and finding bloodwork anomalies; going back in for echo and seeing damage. And taurine deficiency has been identified in many cases, so there is likely to be a link to diet regardless of how long the dog has been eating its diet. Most likely there are other causes - genetics being a significant factor but not understood yet.

So yes, I think it’s too early to freak out. If I had been feeding a grain-free diet for no specific reason, though - I personally would switch to something else. Obviously if you have a specific reason to feed a grain-limited diet (e.g. a specific allergy) that is different. Most people have not allergy tested their dogs to know if there is a specific issue, though. The pressure to “feed a 5 star diet” was significant and lots of people felt they were bad owners if they fed Eukanuba or Purina.

All vets and dog breed clubs are looking at this right now; this isn’t a “follow the money” issue. The FDA report isn’t a study, so I don’t think it was funded, anyway.

I do agree with you. I’m just playing a bit of devil’s advocate or a moderator if you will.

I bolded part of your post, and this is kind of what I was addressing in my first post. I wouldn’t say that it’s affecting breeds that never had history of DCM, I would say it’s affecting breeds that have never had documented cases of DCM. While cardiac ultrasound has been around for about 50 years in human medicine it has really only become the gold standard in the last 20-30 years. Now consider that veterinary medicine has been behind the human curve. So while some research centres and universities have had echo capabilities for that long, accessibility and cost have been prohibitive for the average dog owner until the last 10-20 years. Now if we look at the FDA cases that is the time frame that they’ve been collecting information.

It’s been my understanding through all of this that the baffling DCM cases were the dogs with normal taurine levels. A few months ago I was speaking with one of my vets about it and she was classifying them into 3 categories.
a) Genetic DCM
b) Taurine deficient DCM
c) DCM with normal taurine levels

She’s been a practicing vet for 30 years and said that she hasn’t seen any noticeable increase. But like I said before, lots of older dogs get diagnosed with congestive heart failure and never have any cardiac imaging or a necropsy. Maybe they have DCM? Maybe they don’t.

I also agree with you that I wouldn’t be feeding grain free or a boutique diet without a medical reason. I equate that to eating gluten free just because your favourite celebrity did it, etc.

[Redemption3]

@Bombproof

Actually, your dog shares more than 99% of its DNA with the gray wolf.
https://www.myfamilydnatest.com/how-much-of-your-dogs-dna-is-wolf/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dogs-99-percent-wolf/

Or if you want a more technical article:
https://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1706.full.html

This is not necessarily to say that a dog should be fed exactly like a wolf; it seems likely that dogs’ diets have evolved alongside our own to at least tolerate some of the same stuff we eat. Nevertheless, it’s likely that a dog would do just fine on a wolf diet.

Sorry, I got that backward; I was thinking of the preserved genome in my own dog’s genetic testing. We are speaking of two different things, and I’m not sure how to express it; I apologize for my lack of clarity.

To continue with your thoughts however, yes, I think dogs would do well on a wolf diet; fasting for several days then killing and gorging on whole prey. If the carcass is large, it begins to decompose before they are finished with it.That isn’t the way it works out when one buys frozen organ meats and mixed frozen raw meats, follows a recipe and places it in front of their dog daily, which was closer to what I referred to. My dogs hunt and kill and eat some of the gazillion squirrels and rabbits here. The hunting keeps them alert and fit and all that is left after they feast is a tail or a foot.Their feces look more like coyote scat than a pile of dog poop.

[stb]

I have a friend who is a veterinarian in general practice. Her husband is a veterinary cardiologist. She called me last year to report what they were seeing and to warn me off of grain free foods. Vets do not get kickbacks for recommending foods, BTW. Also, this DCM issue is very real - my cardiologist friend has seen it firsthand.

While it’s true that vets don’t get a lot of training in nutrition, they do see hundreds of dogs in their practice, and they get a good feel for what foods work well and also the ones that don’t. For instance, my general vet friend tells me that she sees tons of diarrhea issues with Blue Buffalo food. She also says that the dogs that she sees that eat Pro Plan look great and tend not to have food related issues, so that is usually what she generally recommends to her patients.

By comparison Dog Food Advisor, which rates dog foods and many, many people take as gospel, is an internet site that is run by a dentist. A human dentist.

I am also a member of the DCM Facebook group - there is lots of really good information there for those who are interested.

It is fascinating how many people don’t want to believe that this is an issue. Conspiracy theories against vets and the Big Four dog food companies (Purina, Hills Science Diet, Eukanuba/Iams, and Royal Canin) abound. If you are interested in why these particular companies are considered safe then you can find that information on the Facebook group.

Grain free and boutique food producers are really fighting back on this - they have a lot to lose. There are also many, many boutique dog food stores whose sole business model is selling grain free and exotic foods. In the last week I have seen Facebook posts from two such stores and both have totally misrepresented the FDA advisory.

In full disclosure, I fed grain free foods for many years, and also fed boutique diets. I thought they were superior to the Purina Pro Plan that my breeder recommended. When I lost two of my dogs at a relatively young age (to cancer, not DCM) I was pretty demoralized and spent a lot of time second guessing the choices I had made. I sat down and thought about the oldest dogs that I knew (I knew a lot of dogs, was competing in dog sports and had lots of breeder friends). To a dog, the very oldest dogs were eating Purina Pro Plan, and had for their whole lives. Not a very scientific study, but enough for me. I changed my dogs to Pro Plan and they are thriving. They are 6 and 11, so too early to tell if they will make it to a very old age.

[GoodTimes]

@Redemption3

Sorry, I got that backward; I was thinking of the preserved genome in my own dog’s genetic testing. We are speaking of two different things, and I’m not sure how to express it; I apologize for my lack of clarity.

To continue with your thoughts however, yes, I think dogs would do well on a wolf diet; fasting for several days then killing and gorging on whole prey. If the carcass is large, it begins to decompose before they are finished with it.That isn’t the way it works out when one buys frozen organ meats and mixed frozen raw meats, follows a recipe and places it in front of their dog daily, which was closer to what I referred to. My dogs hunt and kill and eat some of the gazillion squirrels and rabbits here. The hunting keeps them alert and fit and all that is left after they feast is a tail or a foot.Their feces look more like coyote scat than a pile of dog poop.

I had to laugh when I read this. My dog chases squirrels and rabbits but to my knowledge she’s never caught one. Hard to do when you won’t drop your Jolly Ball!

I personally try to exercise my dog in a way that would simulate wild canines. Endurance activities mostly, she runs and skijors with me. Long and slow is important for cardiac health. Too many dogs have poor exercise routines, a couple short walks and some fetch is insufficient.

[going_gray]

Thank you all for your comments and information on this topic. I have been reading everything on the web that I can find on DCM and really want to find a new dog food for our two BC’s. We have been feeding Taste of the Wild with bison and venison. I was not happy seeing this dog food brand on the list that has been provided by the FDA.

Our two year old BC has a heart murmur (level 4) and an enlarged heart. (Visit to MSU cardiologist in May gave us this diagnosis.) We want to keep this little girl who has no symptoms currently as healthy as we possibly can. So I have a very good reason for switching to another dog food brand.

Reading ingredient lists on bags of kibble yesterday at the grocery store was exhausting and time-consuming. Lots and lots of grain free foods (which I want to get away from) and then I hit the brands which have corn as their first ingredient. Corn! This is why we went to a non grain free diet years ago. I’ve never seen any of our dogs grab corn out of our corn patch. Ever!

DH went to Petsmart this week and they hadn’t heard of the study. DH came home with the Petsmart brand (turkey and potato). We are going to drop this one as potato is apparently not a good ingredient.

I called our vet on Monday, asking for recommendations and receptionist said that no one there had heard about the recent FDA release and that they’d get back to me. Well, that day they had put the link on their FB page with the list of grain free foods and simply stated that dog owners should consider looking at other brands that are not grain free.

Please add to this thread dog food brands you are considering as it will help me and perhaps others to know what is available. I don’t want to feed a dog food now that is totally grain free but neither do I want to feed one that is made up of corn and chicken by products. Hope to learn more as we go along.

[Sansena]

“Please add to this thread dog food brands you are considering as it will help me and perhaps others to know what is available. I don’t want to feed a dog food now that is totally grain free but neither do I want to feed one that is made up of corn and chicken by products. Hope to learn more as we go along.”

this

[Redemption3]

@going gray

Please add to this thread dog food brands you are considering as it will help me and perhaps others to know what is available. I don’t want to feed a dog food now that is totally grain free but neither do I want to feed one that is made up of corn and chicken by products. Hope to learn more as we go along.

I’m not switching to one of the suggested brands. I don’t feed grain free and switch to home cooked a couple times a year. My DNA testing has shown zero genetic risk for canine DCM but I watch taurine levels and of course I watch my dogs religiously, mostly because they are wonderful and I love them. One thing that may have been mentioned already is that dog breeds may do better on some diets than others, due to breed origins. That should also be taken into consideration when choosing a food. My own dogs tolerate high carb diets better than others because as a breed, they are relatively new to the West, and evolved on a high carb diet, called Yal, They do get a high quality protein diet now and do well on it. When my goats are in milk, I cook for my dogs: barley, chicken, eggs from my hens. carrots, and goat milk yogurt with a vitamin / mineral supplement. I don’t do this long term. I always supplement plain kibble with raw whole eggs a couple of times a week and raw goat milk, clabbered or made into yogurt. They get raw meat scraps, beef bone marrow/ broth and cartilage weekly and hunt on their own as well. Anything that enters the goat paddock is risking its life.

Something that sticks out to me is that some dogs live a lifetime on one food only. Imagine how complete and balanced that food has to be to provide everything that dog needs for a long and healthy life? I was in Asia for a while. Kibble is very expensive and not easy to buy and most dogs are fed what their humans eat and do well.

[stb]

Sansena and Going Gray - the current recommendation from the DCM Facebook group and from my veterinary friends is to feed a grain inclusive food from one of the Big Four - Purina, Hills Science Diet, Eukanuba/Iams, or Royal Canin. The reason for this is that these are currently the only food manufacturer’s that have both full time veterinary nutritionists on staff full time and perform feeding trials - not just feeding tests.

As far as feeding byproducts goes - byproducts are not bad. They do not include feathers and beaks, as many internet sources report, but they do include things like organ meat (excellent source of nutrition) and chicken feet (good source of collagen). And guess what? Those foods that sound good enough for us to eat? Those are the ones that are causing DCM. There are no reported cases of nutritional DCM from grain inclusive foods of the big four.

The bottom line is, byproducts and corn won’t kill your dog. Grain free and boutique brands might.

Also, Purina Pro Plan has a Sensitive Skin and Stomach formula that is fish based that has no corn, and I believe no by products. It is a good food. Their Sport 26/16 and 30/20 chicken formulas have been fed for many, many years by serious dog sport people, especially in the hunt test, field trials, and dog show arenas. These foods are the overwhelming choice for serious dog breeders.

[clint]

@going gray

Thank you all for your comments and information on this topic. I have been reading everything on the web that I can find on DCM and really want to find a new dog food for our two BC’s. We have been feeding Taste of the Wild with bison and venison. I was not happy seeing this dog food brand on the list that has been provided by the FDA.

Our two year old BC has a heart murmur (level 4) and an enlarged heart. (Visit to MSU cardiologist in May gave us this diagnosis.) We want to keep this little girl who has no symptoms currently as healthy as we possibly can. So I have a very good reason for switching to another dog food brand.

Reading ingredient lists on bags of kibble yesterday at the grocery store was exhausting and time-consuming. Lots and lots of grain free foods (which I want to get away from) and then I hit the brands which have corn as their first ingredient. Corn! This is why we went to a non grain free diet years ago. I’ve never seen any of our dogs grab corn out of our corn patch. Ever!

DH went to Petsmart this week and they hadn’t heard of the study. DH came home with the Petsmart brand (turkey and potato). We are going to drop this one as potato is apparently not a good ingredient.

I called our vet on Monday, asking for recommendations and receptionist said that no one there had heard about the recent FDA release and that they’d get back to me. Well, that day they had put the link on their FB page with the list of grain free foods and simply stated that dog owners should consider looking at other brands that are not grain free.

Please add to this thread dog food brands you are considering as it will help me and perhaps others to know what is available. I don’t want to feed a dog food now that is totally grain free but neither do I want to feed one that is made up of corn and chicken by products. Hope to learn more as we go along.

We have been feeding our dogs Acana for the last year, and decided that maybe we should give something else a try. Our local feed store carries Annamaet, which has no potatoes or legumes, and we are giving that one a try. So far, the dogs like it a bunch.http://www.annamaet.com/products We are using the Option 24%.

I agree that there is a lot over hysteria on FB over this, including posts by a veterinarian I know, but none of the hysterical posts provide any kind of insight or research to back up their comments. The recommendations to feed Royal Canin give me a headache. If I use the first five ingredients as a guide for what is mostly in the food, it is mostly grain and corn gluten with chicken by products as the only meat. Pro Plan isn’t bad, and I have nothing against Purina, so I may give it a try.

[Posting_Trot]

I looked at Annamaet, and based on a poster’s info above, also looked at the Farmina brand. (You can order Farmina directly from their website). I absolutely know that all we consumers have at this point is a lot of raw data mostly supplied by individual owners and vets, and that the incidence of DCM may be more correlation than causation.

But I worry, and I also like to have a group of different dog foods that I can swap over the course of a year. I do occasionally cook for my dogs, but on a regular basis that just isn’t going to happen.

And if my dogs had to hunt for themselves, they’d have died of starvation long ago! Or maybe not; maybe I don’t give them enough credit. At any event I don’t live in an area where the dogs can be routinely off-leash as a matter of course, so it is a moot issue.

[Simkie]

@stb

It is fascinating how many people don’t want to believe that this is an issue.

Where on Earth are you seeing people who don’t want to believe this is an issue?

Not on this thread, certainly. Not on Facebook, where I see a whole lot of “feed your dog something different immediately!!” Not in the news, where “these kibbles are killing your dog!” headlines abound.

How about we figure out what’s actually happening here before throwing the baby out with the bathwater over less than 500 reports to the FDA?

I sure as hell am not feeding my dog beneful instead of orijen, because it’s produced by an “approved” company :rolleyes:

[stb]

Simkie, nobody said you had to feed Beneful. I certainly wouldn’t feed it to my dogs. I will feed Pro Plan, though, and I would also feed Royal Canin or Eukanuba.

While it’s true that the whole story isn’t available on this yet, there is evidence enough for me to stay with the safer foods. You, of course, are free to do as your choose.

[Simkie]

How do we know what’s safer at this point?

Is it any surprise that the people who feed the $$ grain free food are also the people who are more likely to pay for the $$ echo when their dog has suspicious cardiac symptoms? Or just to check, with all these headlines? For all we know, there’s an equal number of dogs on Ol Roy dying of DCM, but a lot fewer owners that feed that who are willing to spend thousands of dollars for a workup on their dog.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹We know very little.

[S1969]

@Simkie

How do we know what’s safer at this point?

Is it any surprise that the people who feed the $$ grain free food are also the people who are more likely to pay for the $$ echo when their dog has suspicious cardiac symptoms? Or just to check, with all these headlines? For all we know, there’s an equal number of dogs on Ol Roy dying of DCM, but a lot fewer owners that feed that who are willing to spend thousands of dollars for a workup on their dog.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹We know very little.

Because some brands have been fed for years and years without recalls or widespread problems. Of course some dogs may be allergic to specific ingredients; that’s a given and always has been. That said, most dogs are not allergic to grains, and most dog allergies are environmental. Yet people still suggest switching foods as the #1 step without any idea what the dog is allergic to - that is marketing.

But people on this thread are skeptical; suggesting that we “follow the money,” for example. This is not a marketing ploy of the “big 4” - they don’t really need to advertise like that to get customers. That’s why they are the big 4.

I feed Eukanuba Lamb & Rice although I have fed Eukanuba Excel as well. My dogs have done very well on Eukanuba for many years (have been feeding it for about 20 years) and many breeders also feed it. Lots of people in dog sports feed Purina Pro Plan (lots of varieties) with good results. These are people that have money to feed other foods but still choose the big 4…for no other reasons than their good results with the food over long periods of time.

[Simkie]

@S1969

Because some brands have been fed for years and years without recalls or widespread problems.

Given how new widespread use of echo is in veterinary medicine is, how do we know that?

There is no causation attached to this yet. A whole lot of guessing. Even if the problem is grain free, why now? Grain free has been hugely popular far longer than this DCM scare.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[rubles]

@Sansena

Always good to research who’s funding the studies.

Absolutely! I’m so glad someone said it🌞

[S1969]

@Simkie

Given how new widespread use of echo is in veterinary medicine is, how do we know that?

There is no causation attached to this yet. A whole lot of guessing. Even if the problem is grain free, why now? Grain free has been hugely popular far longer than this DCM scare.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

Why are you doubting this? Seriously. Do you think that vets that are telling people to be cautious are making it up?

Lots of breeds and breed clubs use echocardiograms for routine heart evaluation. And lots of vets are referring dogs for further evaluation based on symptoms that have brought them into the vet clinic.

Why are people talking about who has funded a study - there haven’t been any comprehensive studies yet.

I really don’t understand the skepticism. It’s bizarre to me how easily people were willing to jump on the grain free bandwagon but are unwilling to think there could be dietary deficiencies or problems, even with half the veterinary community and the FDA involved. And no, I’m not surprised that some staff at PetSmart were unaware. Geez.