FDA bad dog food

Why are you so willing to follow without any proof?

I think it’s concerning. I think it needs a hell of a lot more study. Correlation does not equal causation.

Frankly, it’s of NO surprise that people who will spend serious cash on diagnostics are feeding grain free food. For better or worse, those who are affluent are more likely to be feeding the boutique brands, and those people with discretionary spending budgets are also the ones who are more likely to do expensive testing on their pets. Those who buy the big bag of Ol Roy are less likely to pursue an echo if recommended and may even be unlikely to have a vet that recommends an echo in the first place. Are those dogs developing DCM? Who knows–no one is looking.

Given that there are no studies yet, and we really don’t KNOW anything, jumping on the “grain free is bad” band wagon may have unintended consequences. What if grain fed dogs are also at risk, but grossly under represented in the current sample due to the financial burden of the test?

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹All I’m saying, and have said, through all of this, is very little is actually known. Many people are making rash decisions on zero actual data. There are a lot of very frightening headlines out there, but, as you say–NO STUDIES.

So I guess we know that people who have the cash to feed their pets grain free also have the cash to do expensive diagnostic testing. It’s not clear if there’s anything else that’s actually KNOWN at this point :-/

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There is no such thing as a DNA test which will give you the assurance of zero probability of DCM. If there is please let the Doberman world know ASAP so we can save the breed.

What irritates me about the excitement this is causing is that many people are now throwing up their hands and saying “see, waste of money feeding expensive dog food”. Raw fed dogs are fed grain free and this is not happening with them. So this isn’t about a lack of grain it is whatever non grain filler is being used in processed foods.

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I don’t think there is “no proof” but I agree that the key issue is unknown. Why do SOME dogs have taurine deficiency but others do not?

I am not “following” anything - I have never fed grain free anyway. But I think people would be silly not to talk to their vets about this. Veterinarians are concerned. They are not panicking, but they are concerned and urging people to be cautious. There are things you can do to see whether your dog is at risk (blood tests, heart evaluations) - if you are feeding a grain-free food because your dog needs limited ingredients - talk to your vet.

Or, talk to your vet anyway. I think the “check who is funding these studies” mentality is out of place, though.

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I plan on talking to my vet, S1969. Actually, I plan on screening my dog–because I fall into that affluent group that feeds spendy grain free food and can afford to screen. I am not terribly concerned, because I see no symptoms, but it’s only money and it would be a stupid thing to miss. So, I am concerned enough to look, but I don’t see any evidence indicating that I need to change what I feed. I’ve had several dogs do very well on this stuff (and die of non cardiac issues in old age.)

As I said before, I think your vets approach is reasonable. There are plenty of others I see on Facebook who are advising immediate food change to something not on that little graph the FDA published. That seems rash. There is no evidence at this point that something not on the list is any “safer.” There is truly little to no evidence that DCM is caused by these kibbles. I look forward to the studies. Do you know what’s in the pipeline? I haven’t had the chance to look.

Just FWIW, my breed (Irish Wolfhound) is very prone to DCM, it is one of our top three causes of death according to the data we have ( which is pretty good thanks to great health studies our club supports). Many IWs develop atrial fibrillation, which often does not progress to DCM, unlike other breeds, but sometimes it does. When IWs develop DCM, it often progresses more slowly than in other breeds. So we have been aware of heart problems in our breed and have been testing breeding stock for about 30 years.

All of my hounds have have been getting routine echos, usually once at about two years and then often one or two more over their life, if the first one is normal.

When one one of my hounds was diagnosed with DCM in the 1980s at the NC vet school, following a screening ekg at a Specialty show that showed a fib (she had no symptoms at all), the cardiologist suggested supplementing her diet with carnitine, even though she had normal levels of it, because supplementing carnitine in cockers and boxers with DCM had been found to be helpful in some cases. You never hear about carnitine anymore. With later dogs with heart issues, supplementing with CoQ10 was recommended by their cardiologists.

I am happy to say that since the late 1990s, I have not had hounds with cardiac issues, although we continue to test. The cardiologist who is working with the breed club now recommends very large doses of Omega 3s, which I have done and continue.

i have fed different diets, from home-prepared (I pressure-cooked whole chickens and cooked cornbread and other things), to raw (hounds did well on this but when they stopped delivering 180 pounds of meat and bones a week, I lasted only another year trying to source and pick up and containerize that much ), I went to a commercial diet which I did research pretty thoroughly and with little regard for cost. I went with a Purina product because of their research, nutritionists, feeding trials, lack of recalls, and the experience of others. I have been pleased with the results, and have raised a number of litters of puppies on Purina Large Breed Puppy (my breed is very prone to developmental orthopedic problems such as OCD, Carpus Valgus, etc. that are affected by nutrition). The puppies are weaned onto Royal Canin Puppy Mousse (this stuff is so great for weaning! Like crack for puppies!) I feed the adults Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach, the salmon and rice formula. I dislike the name, as my hounds do not have sensitive skin or stomachs. I have tried the Sport formulas and most hounds did well on this, but the pieces are so tiny that one hound tended to aspirate the pieces.

Two of my hounds have won National Specialties while eating this diet (or another Purina formula) and I recently lost a big male at the age of 11 with a healthy heart, which is excellent for this breed. His daughter is 9 1/2 and in excellent health (knock on wood!). Next week my friend is coming with her ekg machine to do everyone here.

Because my breed is so prone to heart issues including DCM, most breeders and owners feel it is important to do all we can to not increase their chances of heart problems. We just had Dr.Lisa Freeman, a board certified veterinary nutritionist from Tufts, to talk to us about this issue.

Interestingly, she recommended strongly against using any dog food that used lamb as the primary protein source- in addition to the caution about grain-free, legume containing, “boutique” or exotic ingredient dog foods.

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sigh, I almost hate to post here, you are all so serious and know so much more than I do. The reason I switched to a grain free, is because EVERY SINGLE BRAND at the grocery store had corn as it’s the first or second ingredient. At that time, a lot of dogs were dying from some bad ingredient put into some of the dog food. I can’t remember all this clearly. It seems to me a lot of dogs were getting diabetes and I was told or led to believe corn= sugar, and that was the cause. That is why I went grain free. I also paid close attention to Dog food advisor. I didn’t rely on it as gospel but as a guide.

BTW, the two cats of mine that lived the longest, were brother and sister, and one lived to be 18 1/2, and his sister who lived to be 19 1/2 ate Meow Mix every day of their lives. Of course, I wouldn’t recommend that but they were beautiful healthy cats

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You’re absolutely right about the difference between a predator/scavenger (all predators are opportunistic scavengers) diet and what we buy and feed to them. It’s ludicrous to believe we can even reasonably approximate a “wild” canine diet. There may be some virtue in feeding your dog some raw meats, but it’s pretty limited. When I lived on a farm in Oklahoma, my beagle killed and ate rabbits and squirrels but I now live in a housing development in Anchorage and that isn’t an option for my pit bull. I just try to give him a diet that he thrives on without getting too far into the weeds of trying to replicate a true hunter’s diet. That said, I do feed him raw moose meat when someone I know kills one that turns out to be too “gamey” for human taste. He loves it and it doesn’t seem to do him any harm.

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I didn’t start feeding grain-free food specifically because it was grain-free. My dog is an American Pit Bull Terrier and like a lot of other pits, he has sensitive skin. He had patches of dermatitis and hair loss which didn’t respond to topical treatment. I read in a pet owner forum (I know, I know…) that some other pit owners had seen improvement in the skin with a higher protein diet, which didn’t seem likely to hurt. I started feeding Merrick Backcountry Raw Infused because it had the highest protein content (38%) of anything I could find locally. Coincidentally, it is also grain-free. I’m an MD and I know that a lot of people with eczema and other skin problems are sensitive to grains, so it seemed reasonable to try it. His skin cleared up very nicely and he hasn’t had dermatitis in a long time. I don’t know if it’s the higher protein, the absence of grains, or if he just “grew out of it,” but until all this stuff came out, I didn’t see any reason to rethink that. So now I face the dilemma of continuing the Merrick or changing it. On the one hand, I know he has sensitive skin which has resolved while his baseline risk of DCM is pretty low. On the other hand, dermatitis is not as bad as DCM. There’s no single good answer at this point.

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I don’t remember this at all. I remember that some brands had recalls but never that dogs were getting sick or dying from corn.

I would love to see any articles about this; my quick search brings up nothing except recent stuff related to DCM.

ETA, maybe this? Melamine contamination? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_pet_food_recalls

S1969, that must be what I was thinking. My mom had an old dog that developed diabetes and she had her pts. But my mom fed crap like Benefil. I don’t know what to do about feeding my dog. I try to do the best I can with her without breaking the bank.

My beloved Catahoula died of aflatoxin poisoning in 2006 (?)… after emergency treatment IV antibiotics, rehydration… she had turned the corner and was doing well again then she started having seizures. It was Diamond dog food back in the days before emailed alrets. There were many, many deaths in a two year period.

Yes, but not because of “corn” or grains per se, but because of contaminated food.

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Grain free food is a marketing ploy. Period. It is not based in any legitimate research. Actual grain allergies in dogs are extremely rare. Most dogs who have food allergies such as chicken or beef. There is zero reason to feed a grain free diet.

The research is still pretty recent, but alarm bells started to be raised when dogs that aren’t prone to DCM started getting diagnosed. The current thought is that high amounts of legumes (used in a lot of grain free diets) are blocking the absorption of taurine which is why supplementary taurine isn’t helpful.

I personally wouldn’t feed one of the implicated foods. Tobacco was “suspected” of causing lung cancer for decades before the surgeon general’s warning in 1964. Not every smoker gets lung cancer. Not every dog eating BEG food gets DCM.

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There are about 90 million dogs in the United States. There are about 500 reported cases–some of which are cats, or older dogs in breeds prone to this. And you’re comparing this to cancer caused by smoking?? :confused: Let’s not lose sight of the scope here.

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My anecdotal experience- my Basset Hound has always been a fussy eater and I wanted to give her the best food. We went through a lot of grain free, boutique foods: Blue Buffalo, ToTW, Fromm, Stella and Chewy’s, Merrick Back Country Raw Infused, Acana. She didn’t really like any of them; she was “meh” about all of them

After the first DCM info came out (and we acquired a second dog who was about to transition from puppy to adult food) I decided to switch to the Purina Pro Plan Savor. My thought was it was a little cheaper than the other brands I was feeding (Merrick Back Country Raw Infused at the time), didn’t qualify as one of the foods connected to DCM, and if my dogs didn’t thrive I could always switch. I was skeptical for sure having always fed boutique brands, BUT my dogs coats have become AMAZING on the Pro Plan. My Basset has always had a shiny but wire-y coat- since switching, her coat is soft, soft, soft! same with my second dog. In addition, she loves this food and gobbles it, which I thought I would never see.

FTR - my vets are recommending against grain free due to these studies.

After reading a lot of the posts here, DH and I decided to switch our dogs’ kibble to Purina Pro Plan with beef as the first ingredient. It does have corn byproducts in its ingredient list but corn is not at the top. We switched the cat’s kibble as well to Purina Pro Plan (salmon) for cats.

My sister has used grain free Fromm for years. She has now switched to a Fromm version which is not grain free. (I’ve never heard of Fromm.)

FWIW, DH and I were watching Secrets of the Zoo (Columbus Zoo) on Nat Geo Wild (Animal Planet) last night. One segment was about a small African skunk which was discovered to have heart disease.

The skunk’s caretaker and the zoo’s vet hoped that the skunk’s taurine levels would show up on the low level as that (according to the vet) would be an easy fix for the little animal’s heart. (This little guy was absolutely adorable and both vet and caretaker were in tears with the knowledge that his taurine levels were at a normal level. I choked up as well.)

When we heard them mention taurine, DH and I both turned to each other and said “what”! Apparently other mammals (exotic ones) can have taurine deficiencies and can be treated and helped with supplements of this element (vitamin?).

When we take our BC (one with the heart murmur) in for her next vet visit this month, we may ask vet to do blood work to check on her taurine levels. We had an echo done back in May due to vet hearing a murmur when we took her in for her second annual visit. (She’s just two and we adopted her a year ago.)

For those who think getting an echo done on your dog is somehow done just by those who are wealthy, well, DH and I are newly retired and aren’t loaded with money. We just want to do the best we can for our animals. Oh, the echo and visit with the cardiologist cost us about $250. And a tank of gas. Not so bad!

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Years ago, my dogs weren’t doing as well digestively, after the food they had been eating had an ingredient change to be more “grain-free”. I decided that my dogs did better on foods with grains, and had no reason to change something that wasn’t broken. I decided chickpeas didn’t work for my dogs, and avoided any foods with them since then

I had to abandon another brand when they changed ingredients more than six years ago, and have been sticking with the Fromm since then, only using the non-chickpea varieties. They have been on the Fromm Adult Gold since the regular Fromm adult changed ingredients a little more than a year ago. https://frommfamily.com/products/dog/gold/dry/adult-gold/

My anecdotal information is that my two 11 year olds are doing fine, no heart murmurs, no problems. Their littermate, whose owner fed grainfree foods, passed away from heart failure (not DCM) in March. My breed has a typical life expectancy of 12-15 years. So, it could just be a coincidence, but I’ll continue to avoid chickpeas.

My vet says the same.

The number of dogs impacted is higher than the number of dogs reported to the FDA. The FDA report says:

“We suspect that cases are underreported because animals are typically treated symptomatically, and diagnostic testing and treatment can be complex and costly to owners… Because the occurrence of different diseases in dogs and cats is not routinely tracked and there is no widespread surveillance system like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have for human health, we do not have a measure of the typical rate of occurrence of disease apart from what is reported to the FDA.”

  1. It has to be detected in the first place. Dogs with DCM often show no symptoms until the disease is quite advanced, so many dogs may be asymptomatic in earlier stages. Others may have passed away suddenly with no indication of the cause.

  2. It has to be formally diagnosed. DCM can only be diagnosed by doing an echocardiogram, which is not accessible or affordable for many owners. As the FDA says, many animals are treated for the symptoms of heart disease without determining the precise cause.

  3. It has to be reported to the FDA. Families of dogs with DCM are often understandably overwhelmed by a new serious diagnosis, and there may be confusion over who is responsible for reporting- it can be the pet owner, cardiologist, or referring veterinarian. Owners might not file a report.

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The FDA report also says:

“Another puzzling aspect of the recent spike in DCM cases is that they have occurred just in the last few years. The FDA is working with the pet food industry to better understand whether changes in ingredients, ingredient sourcing, processing or formulation may have contributed to the development of DCM.”

Grain free food has been popular for far longer than two years. This is strange:

And suggestive that this problem is far more complex than grain free food = DCM.

To assume that it’s as simple as that is really ignoring what data we do have. But…it’s certainly a splashier headline that gets a lot more clicks!

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