Feeding Black Oil Sunflower Seeds to a horse with metabolic issues?

[Hermein]

When traipsing thru TSC the other day, I saw a stack of 50# sacks of BOSS at $18 a sack, and was tempted, although I’ve never fed it before.

I’ve since read up on it, and am not completely sold for a couple of reasons: It’s high in Omega 6s compared to Omega 3s. It’s also high in sugar. However, the horse who would be fed BOSS, has arthritis, plus came to me with a high-normal insulin to glucose ratio, which normalized following his being put on a low carb diet, which he is still fed.*

BUT, he’s skinny. I feed him often and lots with food that is supposed to put on weight. His teeth are good, his appetite is good, he is wormed every 3 months on rotation. I haven’t done a fecal yet. Ticks are rare where we live–I find one on a dog maybe every few years or so.

WWYD? How risky would it be to give him BOSS alone or with flax seed to lessen the Omega problem?

*Alfalfa, TC Senior, some Common Bermuda, Flax seed and Beet pulp if I can get him to eat it. There’s also Bermuda pasture.

Thx

[Flash44]

Amounts? You might just need to feed more of what you are already feeding.

[JB]

Personally, I wouldn’t do it. There IS some evidence that corn oil - also high in Omega 6 - has a negative effect on horses, but whether that is from the Omega 6 or not, the study did not know. We DO know that O6 is pro-inflammatory, and we also know, or at least really strongly think that horses just don’t need added O6, especially when many of them don’t (seem to) get enough O3, especially if they don’t get enough fresh grass. So no, I would not add a known pro-inflammatory to a horse with arthritis. I know some people have arthritic horses on it and say it makes no difference on or off, but since there are lots of other options, I just wouldn’t do it.

There’s also some evidence - not strong - that adding fats to an IR horse can worsen issues. So for that reason, I just wouldn’t risk it by adding fat to an IR horse’s diet.

I feed him often and lots with food that is supposed to put on weight.

How much of the Alfalfa, TC Senior, some Common Bermuda, Flax seed and Beet pulp do you give him/does he eat?

he is wormed every 3 months on rotation.

This is a very outdated method of deworming and is part of what has led to the resistance issues we have. What has been the rotation for the last year (so the last 4 dewormings) and when?

I haven’t done a fecal yet

You should at this point. But when you do it will depend 100% on when you last dewormed, and with what.

[FatCatFarm]

I am a big fan of BOSS and feed it to mine, but I am only dealing with PSSM and thus really need the high fat - but no IR nor arthritis, and therefore agree with what JB is telling you. Do a fecal though I suspect with your worming regimen he’s fine, but again, you can probably reduce that to twice yearly and save yourself some money there.

Personally, I would consult your vet about the glucose and determine if he is truly predisposed to IR. If not, then try adding canola oil as that is the easiest way to add fat (calories) to his diet. Start with a half a cup per feeding and see if you can increase it to a cup each feeding. I water all my horses’ feed down so adding the oil really does not increase the messiness and most of mine now prefer their feed that way. It seems the beet pulp helps fluff things up from becoming a paste.

Otherwise, I have been feeding BOSS for years and swear by it as a good, nutritionally rich fat source. The whole Omega 6 vs. Omega 3 argument has not impressed me so far since there seems to be a lot of supposition there. But you have to do what makes you the most comfortable.

[Hermein]

Flash44; He gets 20# of alfalfa–he leaves a few stems. The horses are fed three times a day–two hays, last meal of the day is a porridge that carries their supplements. The skinny horse gets his porridge 3 times a day, two along with his hay, The porridge for him is (total) 6 cups TC Senior, 6 cups grass hay pellets, 1/2 cup Manna Pro dry fat + pre/pro biotics, 1 cup flax seed, 1 tbs additional salt, 1 or 2 cups of soaked beet pulp–which he often eats around. He’s out at least 12 hours (nights because of the heat and flies.)

He’s the only thin horse. The rest of the herd is about 5 or 5.5. They are fed no where nearly as much.

Thanks for all responses.

[JB]

18c of TC Sr - 4.5 quarts. He should be getting at least double that.

Over 3 feedings there’s no reason he can’t get 4-5lb of TC Sr a feeding.

I would drop the Manna Pro fat, and even drop the hay pellets, for giving him much more in the way of a more nutritious, and more calories/lb feed.

It doesn’t matter how the others are doing on how much food - they are not him, he is not them He needs what he needs, and with his lack of good teeth, he is getting nowhere near the nutrition or calories they are out of his forage.

[shezabrazenmare]

Do not do it!

[Pehsness]

[QUOTE=shezabrazenmare;8260988]
Do not do it![/QUOTE]

Curious why you say that?

Though I agree. Of course, only anecdotal evidence, but I fed it for a number of years until I better understood what the imbalance of the 6’s meant, and realized it had been a terrible idea all along In our case, chronic low-grade laminitis was exacerbated until I smartened up.

It’s a constant balancing act of trying to find the right diet for these old skinnies.

[melhorse]

I have been feeding BOSS for seven years now. 1/2 cup in the lunch crimped oats, dried pea, flax and beet pulp mix per day. The only down side is the wonderful sunflower plants the pop up. It does a wonderful job keeping a sheen on the coat and weight on. 1/2 cup to a cup a day would be fine anything more and you may be creating some imbalances.

[Hermein]

His teeth are good–none lost so far. No quidding.

I am considering putting him on an all wet food diet. I think that after a certain age, although they can still chew and eat hay and fresh forage, they just don’t get the nutrition from their rations any longer.

When my old, old boy passed at 34, he had no molars, but I had managed to keep him in good weight for several years on a wet diet–soaked cubes and pellets, Sr. feed with a little grass hay in a slow feeder for entertainment.

Maybe it’s time to switch this horse over to a soaked feed diet.

Thanks for all the info and opinions.

[whbar158]

I don’t think there is anything wrong with feeding BOSS, but I do think there are better options, especially since BOSS is not cheap like it use to be. I don’t see it being some miracle weight gain addition, shine on coat? Sure. Flesh out just a bit, maybe, help gain weight? Not in my experience.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=JB;8260925]
18c of TC Sr - 4.5 quarts. He should be getting at least double that.

Over 3 feedings there’s no reason he can’t get 4-5lb of TC Sr a feeding.

I would drop the Manna Pro fat, and even drop the hay pellets, for giving him much more in the way of a more nutritious, and more calories/lb feed.

It doesn’t matter how the others are doing on how much food - they are not him, he is not them He needs what he needs, and with his lack of good teeth, he is getting nowhere near the nutrition or calories they are out of his forage.[/QUOTE]

I agree with JB. I’ve weighed TC Sr, and it’s roughly equal to one lb per one quart. 4.5qt/day is not much.

[Hermein]

Thx. I’ll weigh it instead of scooping.

[Flash44]

I tend to agree with JB and the science, and prefer to keep things simple. The TC Senior is a great choice, it’s formulated for horses like OPs that may be less efficient at digesting what they eat. It has the pro/prebiotics in it, and plenty of fat for a normal horse. If you are worried about omegas, I’d go with flax over other sources.

What is the Manna Pro dry fat? Cool Calories? If so, I recall that product as basically being dried out vegetable oil, but I could be wrong. Manna Pro makes Simply Flax, although I have not seen the ingredients list or guaranteed analysis on that product.

[WendellsGirl]

[QUOTE=whbar158;8261801]
I don’t think there is anything wrong with feeding BOSS, but I do think there are better options, especially since BOSS is not cheap like it use to be. I don’t see it being some miracle weight gain addition, shine on coat? Sure. Flesh out just a bit, maybe, help gain weight? Not in my experience.[/QUOTE]

This is the category I put flax in. Flax is the present day’s BOSS of the 2000’s. (And I fed lots of BOSS years ago.)

[FatCatFarm]

Except I don’t think flax has as many calories per lb as BOSS which is about 2500. Still, the biggest bang for your buck for calories is still vegetable oil which is 1928 calories per cup of canola oil. So increase his TC senior, add a cup of canola oil per feeding, keep the beet pulp (plain - no molasses) and water well. Like I said, I now water everyone’s ration down and they now prefer it that way and the water makes the oil less messy residue-wise. In the winter, I use warm water which they also seem to appreciate. The water turning it into a mash has also eliminated the threat of choke.

[JB]

KISS

Up the Sr - he’s getting the bare minimum. Some of the “weight” issue can actually be insufficient nutrition/protein/lysine. Give that a month or so and reassess - take pictures every week in the same position, same lighting.

I’m not opposed to adding fat, but I am against it when the basic diet has lots of room for improvement

[Hermein]

The Manna Pro product is called “Senior Weight Accelerator”–or something like that; I’m not out there right this minute. I bought it mainly for the pre & probiotics it contains, and thought the fat (probably Cool Calories) wouldn’t hurt either. I’ll read the label when I go out again.

About 5 or 6 mnths ago, this horse went through a period of frequent colicing & I chose the kitchen sink remedy, adding prebiotics, probiotics, psyllium, and loose salt to his porridge. Something seemed to have worked as he hasn’t, knock wood, been colicy since this stuff was added. I’m afraid to experiment by taking out any of the ingredients. He doesn’t like oil. I can sneak in a little, but doubt I could give a cup in one shot.

Just as a ps–I add the grass pellets to his TCsenior because my pasture is very poor this year and he’s fed straight alfalfa as hay. This is because of availability of forage type and our never-ending drought

[FatCatFarm]

You might find him more agreeable about the oil by totally wetting down his ration, which I believe you indicated you had not been doing.

[Hermein]

I don’t wet down his hay, but he gets a thick slurry with his porridge, given 3 times a day. Still doesn’t like oil; not even Cocosoya–probably because he hasn’t read the price tag.