Feeding Camomile?

[CHT]

A vet suggested I try feeding my mare Chamomile based on anecdotal evidence from clients. Does anybody know what for one feeds it? (powder, tea)?

Mare is currently impossible to catch - trying ace, but some things have triggered her horsey PTSD, and she is a danger to herself and me. Lets me scratch her and engages in allo grooming, but becomes aggressive as soon as she sees a rope or halter (and then circles back for more scratches…). Today she kicked her shelter (hard) because I paused to fix a blanket before feeding her. Other ideas welcome.

[Scribbler]

I’d want diagnostics on ulcers and repro problems and some slow groundwork from scratch. Is this the one with the terrible skin infection?

[CHT]

No, this is a horse I have had for four years. I have done the Ulcer treatment (scoping would be problematic) and repo checks, regumate, and blood work, tried supplements, and x-rays…it has been a long road. I know she suffered a traumatic experience before I bought her (involving getting caught in a dressage ring), and I know even before that she was subject to bad training before that (lots of time in rigs kind of thing).

I stopped riding her end of November to focus on my greener projects, but was still bringing her in to her stall for a few hours daily for pellets and grooming…but she started to be hard to catch. End of December I had the vet out to x-ray her neck (grasping at straws here), and I had to ear twitch her so the vet could get close enough to tranq her…and that may have been part of her breaking point.

Ground work is impossible if I can’t catch her. Plus, it really stresses her - she is however, fantastic to ride. Light on the aids and very trainable. She just doesn’t trust people. People on the ground cause her a lot of anxiety, and she is quick to go in fight mode.

[atr]

I’ve used chamomile when I’ve had a horse on stall rest or we’ve had to keep them in for a few days because of the weather.

It’s pretty mild.

You just buy the flowers in bulk from a herb company. (A pound of chamomile is quite a lot of chamomile.) I just stick a handful in their grain.

It is not show-legal, of course.

[BrendaJane]

LOL, not show legal? Wow!
I am gussling gallons of camomile tea right now. It won;t hurt none, that’s for sure.

could it be that she misses having a job?
not all horses are happy as couch potato

[Scribbler]

I’ve found that groundwork helps a skittish horse. Herd her into a round pen or arena and free longe, send her around w t c with the lightest aids possible. See if you csn get upward and downward transitions at liberty just by increasing or decreasing your pressure. A step forward or back can be eniugh. Start to build up a shared language at liberty. When horse seems to have run off the wiggles and is paying a bit of attention to you then drop all the pressure, see if they get curious and come to you. If she likes scratches then groom her at liberty. Get her to follow you. Like you are leading her with no halter. Teach her to stand for whoa then come when you whistle. You can do all this without a halter.

Do this for a while until you have a routine of trust at liberty. You can even teach back and move haunch at liberty. Once you have her relaxed with you you can start putting a lead rope over her neck while grooming. Slowly work up to a rope halter.

In other words don’t make halter a prerequisite for ground work. Do groundwork with no halter as a prerequisite for halter. Since it sounds like she’s broke it will come back to her quickly once you get past the panic button.

[CHT]

Thanks @Scribbler, I appreciate you are trying to help, but honestly, it has been four years of trying to help her fear issues and I have enlisted vets, trainers and a vet behavourist. Best guess is PTSD. An interesting (but likely not important fact) is that her heart rate goes up with people near by, but goes down when I get on - riding seems to calm her.

I just need to catch her so I can put a break away halter on for now, and get her back into a routine.

She always comes to me, usually with a soft nicker. She will follow me around. She just is currently terrified of the lead rope and the halter…I have no idea why. Although, even though she will follow me, she will gnash her teeth and wrinkle her eyes as she does it.

@BrendaJane I think the break in her routine combine some new horses coming all led to her breakdown…and my ear twitching her for the vet probably triggered some distrust. But I need to catch her.

I tried with a western split rein, and she didn’t seem to recognize it as a lead rope, so did let me touch her with it, but panicked when I tried to put it over her neck…span, went to kick, and slipped on the wet snow…poor kid. Came back for scratches, but was more alert. Made an odd grunting sound when the rein got close. She seems to be in an internal struggle. Maybe I gave her a shock last time I caught her? Who knows.

Going to try chlorpromazine…hopefully she eats it in beet pulp.

[CHT]

Interesting, thanks! SO you find it helps?

No worry about show legal. She really doesn’t like people, so shows aren’t her thing.

[ASB_Stars]

No chamomile. Valerian is your friend. Really. It’s cheap to buy. You can dial it in to work for mares who are a little funny. I’ve used it for horses who needed to be stall bound, and other assorted reasons. No, you can’t show a horse on it. But you can make progress outside of the show ring.

[CHT]

I forgot about Valerian! I have used that before, but it has been decades. Quite the smell to it.

Perhaps I will try each of them and see which works…and which I can get in first! Thank you!

In a perfect world, I would love something to settle her enough so clients can ride her once and a while to learn lateral work and self carriage/contact. She really is lovely to ride…but intimidating to tack up/groom.

[atr]

In those circumstances, it seems to take the edge off. Nowhere near like valerian does, though.

[Heinz_57]

@CHT

I tried with a western split rein, and she didn’t seem to recognize it as a lead rope, so did let me touch her with it, but panicked when I tried to put it over her neck…span, went to kick, and slipped on the wet snow…poor kid. Came back for scratches, but was more alert. Made an odd grunting sound when the rein got close. She seems to be in an internal struggle.

You tried to trick her. That was a violation of trust, and the grunting is a warning. If you don’t have time, I understand, but honestly it sounds like this horse needs a lot of understanding and acknowledgement about where her threshold is, and slowly working to increase it over what is likely a long period of time - and without pushing past it, or you go backwards again. If the sight of a lead rope or halter has her on edge, how far away does it have to be before she is comfortable? If you drop it on the ground, is it still a threat?

[Scribbler]

Adding to this. If horse is totally compliant once captured is she really participating joyfully in being ridden or does she just suck it up and shut down? Lots of horses do this and remain potentially explosive under saddle because they are not fundamentally comfortable with the experience.

Edited to add: just saw the bit about ear twitching for the vet. Yup that could do it for a mare. That’s enough to make her panicked about getting caught in future. That’s what you have to overcome.

[punchy]

Can you tack her in the field? You say she’s terrified of halter/lead; but not bridle? Or also bridle? How are you able to get a bridle on to ride her?

Will she follow you to where you want her to go naked?

Under no circumstances should you twitch her ear. You are going to have to take you time and start back at the beginning. How food motivated is she? Will she eat an apple next to a halter? Don’t try to do anything with the halter, just have her start to associate it with good things. She’s going to be on her own time schedule for this, not yours.

[StormyDay]

This isn’t something a drug/med is going to give you a quick fix for. She sounds like she is too smart and is the kind to always be looking for a reason that you are terrible. She feels you wronged her and she now doesn’t think she can’t trust you. Giving her meds or supplements won’t help.

I would also wonder how food motivated she is. I’d feed her the yummiest grain I can find with her bucket near a halter. When she’s good with that, yummy grain when the halter is hanging from the bucket. Then with the halter rope on her neck. Then with the halter on. Only use the halter to give her the special grain, and only feed the special grain with the halter. You need to make an association between halters and good things.
I’d then start haltering her in the field, give a cookie, take it off and leave. Every time you encounter her it should be a positive experience.

How is she getting her feet done if you can’t handle her?

[CHT]

She is ok getting her feet done IF the barn is quiet (no extra people) and if she is wearing a sheet or blanket. My farrier knows not to touch her beyond her neck and head other than as needed. There have been two occasions when we have had to give up and try another day…but that is out of four years.

I am currently feeding her carrots by hand while the halter is on my arm/shoulder. Her halter lives on her gate near where I feed her one flake of hay (she gets hay in a few locations).

@punchy she isn’t normally terrified of her halter! This is newish. She is normally somewhat tricky to catch, but usually I just wait until she comes to me, and she puts her head in the halter. She likes food and scratches. I would not be brave enough to try to tack her in the field. She will kick and strike if she feels overwhelmed. It would be too easy for her to get panicked and caught up in the tack, or for me to get hurt.

@Scribbler that is why we measured heart rate. Her heart rate goes down to a resting rate as soon as I get on. She is still spicy, but responds to light aids. She sure doesn’t feel “shut down”. The behavourist thinks that once I am on, she thinks the human is gone, and she is back to being ok.

The ear twitch was a mistake, so in the future I will use oral sedation prior to vet visits. The vet and tech just could not get anywhere near her. I did catch her quite a few times after that though, so I am not sure that was the trigger. And I can still rub her forehead.

[BrendaJane]

If she eats it, why nor camomile and valerian (I got a bottle here I bought 2 years ago, for myself, but it upset my intestines…double stepping if you know what I mean.)
Rescue Remedy on the carrot…maybe a dropper on all of them.

[punchy]

I had a mare at the track once who sounds similar ?? She had a fear of people in her space. (She was a total peach to ride though) When you went in her stall she would act like she was going to savage or kick you; though she never did either (she always made sure she missed) her point was well taken. Her thing was, you had to stay far enough away from her to not be a threat, and if you were close enough to be a threat, you had to be doing something that she understood and permitted. So, e.g., when I ran bandages on her before a race—of course she had to go in all fours—I would send the grooms away, let her be free in the stall, and she would stand with her head out the door picking at her hay bag while I crawled around under her belly putting her 4 bandages on. I always touched a leg, with my hand or my arm if I was using my hands to cut the tape or something, so she knew that I was still putting her bandages on. She was ok with that and stood perfectly still—she’d even move over to give me more room if I was too close to the wall. With the farrier, I would take her to an empty stall at the end when everyone had left, and as long as the farrier was working on a foot, she would stand there unconcerned. But as soon as he dropped the foot, she would get anxious and start gnashing teeth/cow kicking/stepping all over. So, I made the farrier put his box on the other side of the stall to go to to shape the shoe and because he was too far away to hurt her, she was ok with it. When he approached it was antsy time again, but he quickly picked up a foot and the antsy stopped. Sometimes we would just stand there and BS while he held one of her feet up and she’d be falling asleep. I also gave her the most sweetest, kindest groom I had and told the cranky groom to skip picking her stall in the afternoons to save them both the aggravation. I guess my point is, your mare may always be a like this, but if you can figure out what makes her tick, you can hopefully develop some work arounds.

[CHT]

She is caught!

I gave her the meds in beet pulp, and an hour later went out to catch her. She didn’t seem drugged and nickered/jogged over, but I was able to easily flip a neck rope over her head, and then led her over and put her halter on. We then went for a walk to look for spring grass before I put her in her stall. A little later I brought her out to brush her and found a wound between her left ear and her forelock - her winter fuzz and forelock hid the blood.

I will blanket her and put her back out in a bit. Because of the wound, I won’t leave a halter on her. We are supposed to get a a fair bit of snow and near zero temperatures, so I feel better with her in a blanket.

Is Chlorpromazine usually this mild in effect? She doesn’t seem out of it at all, she just seemed pleasant and more relaxed…but was surefooted walking on uneven ground and snow/ice patches. Curious if his helps with vaccinations next month!

Hopefully we can get back into a routine, and who knows, maybe chamomile or valerian will help us turn a corner and she can be more comfortable with humans?