Feeding the thin PPID horse; questions

[StormyDay]

One of my horses has been diagnosed with PPID. His only symptom has been significant top line muscle loss; we tested liver enzymes and other stuff too because of the lack of symptoms. He’s an OTTB, always needed a lot of grain to keep weight, but this spring he just kept getting thinner despite how much food I was giving him.

Pretty much everything says to feed him low carb/low NSC/low sugar feed. However, in the past he hasn’t done well on low carb food. He tends to loose a lot of weight, even when I compensate for calorie differences. And extra fats (oils, etc) tend to give him the runs.

He’s never had laminitis, never even been footsore. He also hasn’t been fat a day in his life. Does he need to be on a low NSC grain? Has anyone had a PPID horse but kept them on a higher sugar grain?

His test number was 42.7pg/ml if that changes anything.

[Obsidian_Fire]

Is he on medication?

[StormyDay]

He just started it. He has quite a while before he’s up to the full dose though.

[JB]

I would feed as if he’s going to become IR, but he doesn’t have to be fed THAT strictly. How old is he? At some point, they just get to eat what they’ll eat and you cross your fingers.

I’ve run the gamut on finding what my 34yo PPID with some missing molars and what’s left isn’t great, will eat. A GREAT feed would be Triple Crown Senior Gold. 1800 cal/lb and about 11.4% NSC. I’m not sure there’s another combination of high cal/lower NSC.

TC Perform Gold is 17.4% NSC and also 1800 cal/lb.

I’d for sure stay under 20%, and in the 15% NSC range or lower (17.4 is probably fine for him). As you can see, not ALL low carb feeds are lower calorie

Nutrena SafeChoice Sr is what’s working best for my guy right now. He likes it the best, which means I can get him to eat 10-12lb a day, and everything else was a struggle to get 6lb, mayyyyyybe 8.

How fast did you introduce fat/oil? Which one(s)?

I’m also adding a scoop of Cool Calories, not that it’s THAT many calories, but it’s a very strong smell and it seems to appeal to him as well, which helps eat more food

[StormyDay]

@JB

I would feed as if he’s going to become IR, but he doesn’t have to be fed THAT strictly. How old is he? At some point, they just get to eat what they’ll eat and you cross your fingers.

I’ve run the gamut on finding what my 34yo PPID with some missing molars and what’s left isn’t great, will eat. A GREAT feed would be Triple Crown Senior Gold. 1800 cal/lb and about 11.4% NSC. I’m not sure there’s another combination of high cal/lower NSC.

TC Perform Gold is 17.4% NSC and also 1800 cal/lb.

I’d for sure stay under 20%, and in the 15% NSC range or lower (17.4 is probably fine for him). As you can see, not ALL low carb feeds are lower calorie

Nutrena SafeChoice Sr is what’s working best for my guy right now. He likes it the best, which means I can get him to eat 10-12lb a day, and everything else was a struggle to get 6lb, mayyyyyybe 8.

How fast did you introduce fat/oil? Which one(s)?

I’m also adding a scoop of Cool Calories, not that it’s THAT many calories, but it’s a very strong smell and it seems to appeal to him as well, which helps eat more food

He’s 25. He also has less teeth than preferred. We actually tried TC perform Gold last year and he lost weight on it despite eating a ton of it. I can always try again.

I’ve tried grains with higher fat content (ultium, TC gold, another my feed store carries but I forget the brand) and I’ve tried all sorts of feed store oils. I introduce everything reeeeeealy slowly with him because of his sensitive digestive system. The only thing his digestive system seems to tolerate is vegetable oil. I can give him exactly 1/2 cup; no more or he gets the runs. He currently is eating purina enrich and then 8 pounds of barley/oat mix. He gained weight with that but not top line. He loves his grain but won’t eat more than that. He also will not eat hay pellets unless it’s winter. He’s picky but loves the food he does like.

[Maude]

Give him beet pulp (soaked) in addition to the TCS and feed him 3x/day.Soft grass & alfalfa. My 31
Yr old retired dressage horse with Cushings stopped eating the beet pulp. I also feed good leafy alfalfa in addition to good quality orchard grass hay. The horse also is on 2 Prascend daily. For 31 though a bit ribby she looks pretty darn good!

[IPEsq]

Have you tried anything for the gut specifically? My young horses who have been hard keepers and with super sensitive GI tracts all became easy keepers once I got their gut healed and acting normal. My big guy was wormy, had fecal water syndrome, lots of gas, etc. He had to eat so much TC Senior Gold on top of as much hay as he would eat. It took me a long time of experimenting because he was also super picky, and using oils and flavorings and such to get him to eat some feeds and supplements for his gut health. Plus catching up on the deworming issue.

Since last fall, he’s acted like a normal horse in terms of his gut and poop, and now he’s turning into an air fern. I think one thing that set him on the right track was the higher concentration butyric acid Water Werx supplement from HorsesTech, and mixing in a chopped forage into his feed. And then transitioning him to the soy free feed my IR horse gets once he started to be able to eat less.

An OTTB is probably still going to need more feed than my horse, but I think if you can get him to a place where his gut is less reactive, he will use his food better.

[JB]

Try Nutrena SafeChoice Sr - the flavor profile was fairly recently upgraded to appeal to pickier old guys

[Jarpur]

The Purina RepleniMash I mentioned in another thread contains Outlast for gastric support; the Santa Cruz Horse Appetite Support Supplement I also mentioned in that other thread is designed to support overall digestive health.

I feed both of these to my 26 year old PPID horse (he’s not thin, but he’s not IR, either), and he certainly seems to have a better appetite since receiving these – his appetite had vanished due to the Prascend, he even lost interest in grazing. He ate all of his lunch today, the last bite out of my hand! Yay!

Best wishes for your horse.

[StormyDay]

@Maude

Give him beet pulp (soaked) in addition to the TCS and feed him 3x/day.Soft grass & alfalfa. My 31
Yr old retired dressage horse with Cushings stopped eating the beet pulp. I also feed good leafy alfalfa in addition to good quality orchard grass hay. The horse also is on 2 Prascend daily. For 31 though a bit ribby she looks pretty darn good!

He has always felt beet pulp was something invented to torture horses
He has 24/7 access to a round bale and grass pasture. The round bales are good quality orchard.

[StormyDay]

@IPEsq

Have you tried anything for the gut specifically? My young horses who have been hard keepers and with super sensitive GI tracts all became easy keepers once I got their gut healed and acting normal. My big guy was wormy, had fecal water syndrome, lots of gas, etc. He had to eat so much TC Senior Gold on top of as much hay as he would eat. It took me a long time of experimenting because he was also super picky, and using oils and flavorings and such to get him to eat some feeds and supplements for his gut health. Plus catching up on the deworming issue.

Since last fall, he’s acted like a normal horse in terms of his gut and poop, and now he’s turning into an air fern. I think one thing that set him on the right track was the higher concentration butyric acid Water Werx supplement from HorsesTech, and mixing in a chopped forage into his feed. And then transitioning him to the soy free feed my IR horse gets once he started to be able to eat less.

An OTTB is probably still going to need more feed than my horse, but I think if you can get him to a place where his gut is less reactive, he will use his food better.

Well, he lives on Esomeprazole as a preventative since he eats so much grain. He gets fecal tested and ivermectin 2x a year no matter what for the bot flies. But as far as supplements, I haven’t tried any.

[jherold]

Not all horses with PPID are insulin resistant. My 25 yr old was diagnosed with PPID at 13. He has never been insulin resistant. I feed him like any other healthy horse. In addition to he pergolide, he is on full pasture and a handful of senior with his vitamins. When he was in work, he dropped weight after adding peegolide and needed grain to maintain his weight.

I wouldn’t assume he was insulin resistant just because he has Cushings. They don’t always go together.

[StormyDay]

@jherold

Not all horses with PPID are insulin resistant. My 25 yr old was diagnosed with PPID at 13. He has never been insulin resistant. I feed him like any other healthy horse. In addition to he pergolide, he is on full pasture and a handful of senior with his vitamins. When he was in work, he dropped weight after adding peegolide and needed grain to maintain his weight.

I wouldn’t assume he was insulin resistant just because he has Cushings. They don’t always go together.

Thanks, that’s what I was wondering. Every source acts as though the PPID horse is also obese and has signs of previous laminitic episodes.

[Jarpur]

My PPID/non-IR horse has never shown any signs of laminitis, or ever been foot-sore in any way. He still moves very well.

[JB]

@jherold

I wouldn’t assume he was insulin resistant just because he has Cushings. They don’t always go together.

They don’t, no, but being PPID does predispose a horse to becoming IR, regardless of being a breed already predisposed

[SusanO]

Can you get some really good quality western alfalfa? The kind that is all leaf and thin stems and smells like heaven. I have never seen a horse refuse that and that might help with his potential ulcer problems from all the grain.

[Maude]

Good luck to you

[StormyDay]

Maybe, I can check the feed store. They carry it in the winter but usually reduce their hay sales a lot in the summer since no one really needs any around here.

[IPEsq]

Especially if he’s on Nexium long term, you may want to add some hind gut support at least.

[eightpondfarm]

You just might find that when the Cushings meds kick in he’ll have a much easier time utilizing his feed. I know with my mare, it took awhile, but she lost her cresty neck and bumpy rear and put some fat along her ribs and spine. Within less than a year she looked to be a totally different horse.