So is this really targeted at the RF’s, Fernhills and corporate sponsors of the world? Is the destruction of ability to trace OTTB names/disincentive to purchase at TB just a fortunate (for European WB breeders) side effect. Because if the FEI really wanted to be nasty, they could make you show the absence of a tattoo to register your new grade horse.
[QUOTE=NCRider;8565934]
Because if the FEI really wanted to be nasty, they could make you show the absence of a tattoo to register your new grade horse.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think they could go that far. So many tattoos are illegible anyway: yes, it proves it’s a registered TB, but you can’t precisely identify its name. And many of them are sold without papers, so even less proof of identity.
FWIW, I don’t see where it’s the FEI’s job to “protect” breeders anyway. The FEI is a governing body for safety and fairness of sport, not a nanny for breed registries.
I fully support a fee (even a substantial one) to change a horse’s name once it has an established passport and competition record. If breeders want the horse’s name to stay for life, they should have the option to register the horse with the FEI and obtain an official passport before they sell the horse as weanling, yearling, etc. With that hassle already accomplished, a buyer may be more likely to keep the birth name simply because the passport is done and changing it would incur a penalty.
[QUOTE=pcwertb;8565138]
Not so sure about that:
HORSE NAME CHANGES GUIDELINEs
Definitions
Horse Birth Name:
- The name of the horse in the document issued at horse birth
- If (1.) is not applicable, the name of the horse in the first birth studbook document.
- If the horse is not affiliated with any studbook, the name of the horse is based on
the name written in the first document issued (either national passport / first
original document, or FEI recognised document or FEI Passport).
The Horse Birth Name must remain the same for the entire life of the horse in the
FEI Database and/or FEI Document.
Horse Name Change: Any modification/change to the current name of the horse
or the creation of a different current name than the Horse Birth Name.
Documents uploaded to the FEI Database will be used for verification. In the case
that there is no document available for a horse, the National Federation will have
to upload a copy of the document as listed above under Horse Birth Name.[/QUOTE]
Good call. It says BIRTH name not registered name. Gotcha. Well no issue for me I leave their names, have yet to change one but I won’t swear I never would.
If you want to pick the name of your horse, breed it.
If you buy it, you don’t get to chose.
If the name is a real problem for you, better check the rules of the studbook the horse is registered with and what you want to do with it first because more and more studbooks and federations are going to make you pay a lot or not even allow it at all.
Why? It is a record keeping nightmare.
So if the name is SOOOO important to someone, then don’t buy the horse because of its name…problem solved…
Unbelievable…:mad:
[QUOTE=Quixotic;8566193]
Why? It is a record keeping nightmare. [/QUOTE]
Oh, please. Not in a modern, well-designed database.
I recently changed my coming 3 year old’s name with AHHA. Easy peasy, with a small fee. I even got a reply from the registrar that she likes his new name better. 
Shouldn’t the record keeping go by the registry number which would always stay the same?
Also sent in the paperwork with USEF to change it there as well. He has had no show record as of yet.
[QUOTE=Quixotic;8566193]
If you want to pick the name of your horse, breed it.
If you buy it, you don’t get to chose.
If the name is a real problem for you, better check the rules of the studbook the horse is registered with and what you want to do with it first because more and more studbooks and federations are going to make you pay a lot or not even allow it at all.
Why? It is a record keeping nightmare.
So if the name is SOOOO important to someone, then don’t buy the horse because of its name…problem solved…
Unbelievable…:mad:[/QUOTE]
really?
germane to the topic, i do wish there could be some way for them to keep both the race name and the show name of an OTTB on file. similar to how towns have the birth name and the ‘nee Endore’ or married name/maiden on file… it really wouldn’t be that hard.
[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8566200]
Oh, please. Not in a modern, well-designed database.[/QUOTE]
When you find that singular, modern Database, you let me know.
You TB people need to get off your high horse. You think the FEI gives two shakes about your horses “Race Name”. This rule changes has to do with money. When a sponsor of a show or circuit has to put out a lot of money, they don’t want to have to compete with competitive sponsors on the Horses name. So, in protecting the breeder, which is important, and making it fair for the Corporate sponsors who have to pay, they make all commercial efforts come with a fee.
Breeders have the right to have their name on the animal they bred. For those who think breeders should get FEI passports on all of their horses you are being ridiculous. With the expectation to pay next to nothing for our horses to begin with, I suppose it would expected that buyers would be willing to pay additional money so that the horse came with a FEI passport. Get real people.
As a breeder, and sport horse owner, this is a fair rule. For those businesses that buy horses and re-sell them, pony up the funds if your want your name to override the breeders.
Tim
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;8566494]
When you find that singular, modern Database, you let me know.
You TB people need to get off your high horse. You think the FEI gives two shakes about your horses “Race Name”. This rule changes has to do with money. When a sponsor of a show or circuit has to put out a lot of money, they don’t want to have to compete with competitive sponsors on the Horses name. So, in protecting the breeder, which is important, and making it fair for the Corporate sponsors who have to pay, they make all commercial efforts come with a fee.
Breeders have the right to have their name on the animal they bred. For those who think breeders should get FEI passports on all of their horses you are being ridiculous. With the expectation to pay next to nothing for our horses to begin with, I suppose it would expected that buyers would be willing to pay additional money so that the horse came with a FEI passport. Get real people.
As a breeder, and sport horse owner, this is a fair rule. For those businesses that buy horses and re-sell them, pony up the funds if your want your name to override the breeders.
Tim[/QUOTE]
none of “you TB people” are on a high horse. what an absurd thing to say. if you took the time to read the posts above you would have noted that these OTTBs are not sporting the prefix of their breeder’s names and that the posters that wanted their OTTB’s racing name preserved only wished to do so for breeders like you in case the horse became a spectacular athlete and breeders were interested in the pedigree.
in race horse breeding the breeder rarely names the horse. and if i’m frank, lots of OTTB names are just plain stupid. all of my OTTBs have had absurd names that were not named by their breeders.
i understand the motives behind why the FEI is charging money for the name change and i think it is highly appropriate for horses that were bred for the sport. but for horses, like race horses, where eventing is their second successful career, i think ponying up $1k so that my horse’s pedigree is transparent to breeders is silly.
Beowulf,
I live in MD, surrounded by TB breeders. Many if not most of them are named by the breeder. So I am not sure where you are getting this information from. I agree that most of the names are stupid, but that doesn’t change the fact that when the horse started is sport career, the owner didn’t care to use the horses name from the breeder. I know this because, almost every TB in sport that I have come accross, their owner doesn’t have their horses papers, especially if it is a mare. So once again, the TB INDUSTRY is working against the sport horse industry, because they don’t care about sport. Why would you continue to support that activity?
The “High Horse” comment was about the insinuation that FEI was purposefully trying to hurt the TB in relation to sport. I only stated that the FEI could care less about helping or hurting any breed.
Tim
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;8566494]
When you find that singular, modern Database, you let me know. [/QUOTE]
What would you like to know?
One horse may have one or more owners. Each owner of the horse may give the horse one or more names. Subsequent owners may use the same or different names as previous owners. It’s all standard one to many relationships. There is nothing complex about this problem.
I will grant you that if the registries/organizations think it IS a complex problem, then their data is probably a mess and straightening that out into a modern and maintainable solution might be somewhat of a challenge.
But setting up a database that could solve the underlying problem is not. It’s the sort of thing relational databases do all the time. With much larger and significantly more complex data sets than a registry/equestrian organization has to deal with.
where i’m getting the information from… see my location – NY is one of the meccas of TB breeding - i lived right outside of several of the biggest breeding facilities in NY - watched many sales, most yearlings are sold w/o a name. watch the sales some time, you’ll see for yourself. i am not doubting your merits as a breeder but i think you’ve got this all backwards in terms of posters who are trying to preserve the transparency of their TB’s pedigrees for breeders like you.
[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8566574]
What would you like to know?
One horse may have one or more owners. Each owner of the horse may give the horse one or more names. Subsequent owners may use the same or different names as previous owners. It’s all standard one to many relationships. There is nothing complex about this problem.
I will grant you that if the registries/organizations think it IS a complex problem, then their data is probably a mess and straightening that out into a modern and maintainable solution might be somewhat of a challenge.
But setting up a database that could solve the underlying problem is not. It’s the sort of thing relational databases do all the time. With much larger and significantly more complex data sets than a registry/equestrian organization has to deal with.[/QUOTE]
My Comment wasn’t that it is difficult, Even the USEF database allows for it. The problem is no one has created it, in such a way that has buy in from everyone else. There isn’t a complete database out there that is compiling ALL of the horses. Each database out there has their own pool of horses, and their own set of rules and fees. This problem I feel is much bigger and challenging then just requiring people to use the name given by the breeder.
Tim
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;8566594]
Each database out there has their own pool of horses, and their own set of rules and fees. This problem I feel is much bigger and challenging then just requiring people to use the name given by the breeder.
Tim[/QUOTE]
Yes, that’s a more challenging problem. It makes for really fun projects, though.
I don’t agree that using the name given by the breeder is a good work-around, though. Names are horrible identifiers. Even if they are unique in a registry, they are not unique across registries–and in the US, at least, people can still buy and show any number of legitimately grade horses because there is no national registry requirement (and USEF isn’t even close to being that).
From a strictly data perspective, pushing for all the registries to buy into the ULN or as an interim thing leveraging the microchip numbers now that the USEF H/J rule change went through (and no doubt other disciplines will follow) would be a much better solution and set the industry up for better long-term tracking success.
[QUOTE=Quixotic;8566193]
If you want to pick the name of your horse, breed it.
If you buy it, you don’t get to chose.
If the name is a real problem for you, better check the rules of the studbook the horse is registered with and what you want to do with it first because more and more studbooks and federations are going to make you pay a lot or not even allow it at all.
Why? It is a record keeping nightmare.
So if the name is SOOOO important to someone, then don’t buy the horse because of its name…problem solved…
Unbelievable…:mad:[/QUOTE]
Or you register it with FEI as unknown breeding… 
AJ Eventer, the problem I see is that for many of these horses that DO NOT YET have an FEI passport, and have been shown by their non Jockey Club name, would have to use the JC name of the TB should they inform the FEI that such a document actually exists. Once a USEF and USEA name is recorded for an OTTB, it would be nice to be able to use that name for the FEI passport, yes? Without the fee? I can understand the FEI not wanting every trader who has ever sourced a horse to put their prefix or suffix on a horse and then sell it on. But to punish the minions with OTTB hoping to do an FEI event, that 1K is a lot of cash.
[QUOTE=pcwertb;8566992]
AJ Eventer, the problem I see is that for many of these horses that DO NOT YET have an FEI passport, and have been shown by their non Jockey Club name, would have to use the JC name of the TB should they inform the FEI that such a document actually exists. Once a USEF and USEA name is recorded for an OTTB, it would be nice to be able to use that name for the FEI passport, yes? Without the fee? I can understand the FEI not wanting every trader who has ever sourced a horse to put their prefix or suffix on a horse and then sell it on. But to punish the minions with OTTB hoping to do an FEI event, that 1K is a lot of cash.[/QUOTE]
Yes, totally correct. :yes: That’s what I just went through with my horse (OTTB). In the end, I got what I wanted…I didn’t pay $1K…his passport does say his non-JC show name, and his sire and dam. It just doesn’t reference his JC-registered name (which is fine, because nobody at the USEF, USEA, or the eventing world knows that name).
$1K is a lot of money to those who are scrimping and saving to compete at the CIC* level (on their $2500 CANTER horse). It may actually turn some people off altogether from playing in the FEI levels, and stick to national horse trials.
As a breeder myself, I fully want to support the breeders’ “side” of this - it would be nice to see the breeders recognized and prevent the commercialization of renaming to suit sponsors/trainers.
However, the OTTB name change argument is really a separate one. I am in a similar boat to EventerAJ: while most of the horses are my own homebreds (which I named myself, so I tend to like their names ), I recently purchased an OTTB for myself. He has been showing for a few years at the lower levels with his previous owner, under a name other than his JC name.
His JC name is brutal (“Just Scrapin’”). He has been showing under a different name. As he has only competed at the lower levels, an FEI passport has not been a consideration. I intended to keep his competition name because A) it’s a heck of a lot better than his JC name, and B) that’s what he has been showing under for the last few years.
So, I basically have two options: I can preemptively change the horse’s name back to his awful JC name, in case I make it to a level/competition requiring an FEI passport in a few years, or I can compete him under his current competition name, and then change his name in the middle of his competitive career, back to a (terrible) name that he has never shown under. Neither of those sounds like a particularly appealing option.
[QUOTE=Tradewind;8567611]
As a breeder myself, I fully want to support the breeders’ “side” of this - it would be nice to see the breeders recognized and prevent the commercialization of renaming to suit sponsors/trainers.
However, the OTTB name change argument is really a separate one. I am in a similar boat to EventerAJ: while most of the horses are my own homebreds (which I named myself, so I tend to like their names ), I recently purchased an OTTB for myself. He has been showing for a few years at the lower levels with his previous owner, under a name other than his JC name.
His JC name is brutal (“Just Scrapin’”). He has been showing under a different name. As he has only competed at the lower levels, an FEI passport has not been a consideration. I intended to keep his competition name because A) it’s a heck of a lot better than his JC name, and B) that’s what he has been showing under for the last few years.
So, I basically have two options: I can preemptively change the horse’s name back to his awful JC name, in case I make it to a level/competition requiring an FEI passport in a few years, or I can compete him under his current competition name, and then change his name in the middle of his competitive career, back to a (terrible) name that he has never shown under. Neither of those sounds like a particularly appealing option.[/QUOTE]
thank you for saying better what I tried to say. I completely support breeder recognition… but I think the OTTB name change argument is completely separate to recognizing the good breeders in eventing… OTTB breeders are much easier to research/record - look up either on pedigreequery or equibase and the breeder is nearly always listed.
OTTB are a fraction of the problem FEI is facing as far as this issue is concerned. So even if you (OTTB owners) do have a case of not being so lucky when it comes to names, should the industry stop going forward because of it?
NO!!!
And yet again, we are only talking about names. Deal with it. If you horse becomes a superstar, nobody will care.
The horse, his true identity and his show record is what matters. Nothing else.
