I’m an old hat at horses but a newbie smurf at raising a feisty filly!
Catty, born April 13, was already feisty even 3/4ths born - jumping around as I helped her into the world!
My other mare - besties with Catty’s dam, tried to insert herself when Catty was being born, so I had to remove her. Therefore, Catty has been raised by her dam, solely. And me, of course.
I’m having a tad of issue with how to handle her treating me like a playmate. And kicking out at me.
I get it not to ‘play’ with her. I get it to growl at her when she does wrong, or even wrong-ish. But I’m damned how to nip it fully.
Mare is a nice tb. Gentle/docile but, FWIW, not the most handled from age 2-7 (in a big tb studfarm herd - professionally tended/handled but not groomed/led in-out/handled all that much.)
I’d love advice from the pro handlers in the corps. Any/all - now and future!
In the past I’ve had only colts (who can be growled into obedience at first, then snipped into acquiescence!) And last year’s foal out of this mare, also a filly, was as gentle/docile as my colts/now geldings. So this is new to me!
She is a horse. A small horse, but none the less a horse. Discipline is no different with her than it would be with a big horse. No means no. That means, no biting, no kicking, no barging into you. These deserve a sharp spank - sharp because you want to make an impression the first time. Nothing worse than even a spank turning into a game, so the spank must be sharp, sting a bit, and it’s okay for her to back away from you. Youo’ve not terrified her off all people. You’ve told her, “hey, listen up, I’m not your chew toy!” And you MUST MEAN IT. You must match the spank with a stern annoyed face, since you don’t have a pair of ears to flatten against your head. Then, immediately upon her backing off, you must remove your annoyed face and act like nothing ever happened. Never hold a grudge - horses, even adult horses, do not understand grudges. A boss mare disciplines her target and then drops it. So it must be with you. Discipline your target, then drop the issue. Repeat only if it becomes necessary. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won’t. Match the intensity she directs at you with an appropriate repercussion, then drop it again.
You don’t engage in games. Everything you do must have a purpose. But you must also be fair and you MUST BE CONSISTENT. You are there to put on her halter and lead rope, to lead her in and out to her paddock or stall, to groom her, to pick up her feet. Do not engage in games with her. You are not a plaything. You are boss mare and it’s all business. This is very hard because babies are cute… but babies grow up very quickly and become bratty, spoiled yearlings who out weigh you, out power you, and out strength you. So, in your mind, you must treat her with the expectant training attitude that you are wishing to mold her into the way you wish her to be as a fully grown horse - quiet, respectful, with good manners, exactly the way you expect an adult horse to behave.
It’s a training process - Bear in mind, she is a blank slate and knows nothing, so explaining the rules is in order (several times until she understands), but then you must be consistent in enforcing said rules.
You can spank her, once, sharp when she bites or kicks and make her back away off you. You have no doubt that boss mare would use her teeth and pinch the skin very hard, and make baby back up very quickly. Your personal space is to be minded. No rearing, no tantruming. You’ve let her get away with some behaviour now for 2 weeks, so you will have to backtrack, but you must do it now.
Every time she acts out or attempts to engage in a behaviour you don’t like, it is a training opportunity. This is the only time to train a foal. They don’t know what they don’t know, so you use these opportunities to teach them, “no this is not acceptable”, or alternatively, “yes, this is very good!” Reward the good behaviour just as much, if not more, than the naughty behaviour, so she learns the difference from when you are pleased with her and when you are annoyed. She must know the difference between the two especially and as you engage her she will start to want to try to do things to get the pleased, happy looks and pats. Always reward her good attempts at appropriate behavior.
Don’t feed her anything by hand. Ever.
You can expect a month old foal to know that they are to stand next to you without engaging their teeth, hooves, or the like. They should readily be happy to put on and take off their halter and be starting to be fairly reliable with leading. They should be well-versed with picking up their feet and have already had a visit from the farrier.
If she were out in a herd, boss mare would deal with her in no uncertain terms and how to mind her Ps and Qs.
For what it’s worth, as long as mom and babe are well bonded to each other, they can go out with another mare as long as mom is able to defend herself and her foal and nobody gets bullyish, and as long as the other mare stops trying to steal her. The extra contact with adult mares is good for foals to learn proper manners.
I had one filly that was firing with both hinds as soon as I opened the stall door. What worked for her was to hide on the other side of her dam with a whip. I reached under the mare and petted her with the whip. If she accepted it, she continued to get petted. If she kicked, she got swatted.
Rodawn
Thanks!
But … she’s doing it when she’s loose - I’m walking thru the field (to put out hay, whatever, and she approaches me and I stop, scratch, etc. (appropriately - of course no plaything/anything) and then I go to move off, and she’s wheeled and fired at me.
I get it that I’m doing wrong, somehow, but … do I chase her down and ‘discipline’ as directed, or … ?
I can’t find the little-est halter, so she’s halterless right now - I **get it ** that I’m placing myself at a severe disadvantage.
So … I get a halter on the little squirt and have better result, but I’m still uncertain how to handle the loose-horse behavior.
One positive point - I put the dam’s bestie back out with them and dam is tolerating and so there’s now 2 mares going to be on top of Miss Thang.
Keep the advice/chat coming. I’m so appreciative of the opportunity to learn.
Here’s another (potential) issue - my boyfriend, a great horseman but without experience raising a foal, has the idea that ‘breathing into a horse’s nose’ is the way to ‘imprint’ on them – “That’s how horses’ communicate” he says, and he says this is the way to communicate with my horses. It doesn’t bother me in the least that he does this to the older made horses (geldings!) b/c they are good/don’t mind/whatever.
But I have this impression its probably not a positive thing to do this to a young horse, in particular, and perhaps not an older horse either.
I can’t be the one to ‘tell him’ – not really knowing exactly if this is/is not a good idea with any youngster. This one, I fear, in particular.
When she wheels and fires at you, you put on your annoyed face, make definitive eye contact, curl your lip and growl NO. If you can connect, make a sharp connection with your hand and drive her away from you. At this stage, they’re old enough to give you some bruises if they connect, but this is exactly the stage where you’re going to have to be willing to risk it in order to teach her loose or free, the feet stay ON THE GROUND.
I had one colt who did that to me - once - I stepped sideways, avoided the feet, and made very fast, smart bodily contact with his ribs with the whole side of my body and shoved him sideways - my right hand stung his arse, my left hand stung his chest, my voice growled in his ear, my eyeballs were just above his eyeballs, and my body physically moved him sideways and then continued my forward momentum at his shoulder so he had to back up - and you back them up about 3 or 4 steps whilst maintaining direct eyeball contact and an unhappy face. That was quite a look of surprise on his face. But he never did it again. And he wasn’t afraid of me, but he was more respectful. There’s a fine line between fear and respect, but you definitely want respect. He was older than your filly is now though and knew enough to know better, so I was more stern with him than I would have been had he only been 2 weeks old.
The punishment has to fit the crime and has to match intensity for intensity. Additionally, it has to fit their knowledge base. I am more stern with those who know better. I am more consequential reaction with intent to train with those foals/horses who know little. I made contact with this colt because he was old enough to know better, but still chose to try it - and curled his neck, flattened his ears, squeeled and kicked a leg. So, it’s not really my problem if his aim was off and he missed me, but his intention was to make contact, so I made contact. Didn’t hurt him. Bruised his ego somewhat, but he got the message. Now, this colt is a nice, well-behaved, easy-to-manage 3 year old stallion for his owner.
It does not hurt them emotionally or physically. At this point, the antics do not much more to you than a stinging bruise on your leg or hip if they connect, but you have to work your psyche through that and make contact, or if you aren’t close enough, then sharply clap your hands loudly and look stern, and make eyeball contact and growl. In just a couple months a heel connection to your stomach is going to do considerably more damage.
As for nose to nose breathing, it’s fine as long as it doesn’t end up with a set of baby teeth on his nose, which can happen. Horses don’t really greet foals nose to nose. Adult horses look toward babies and extend their nose towards them, but don’t really make nose-to-nose contact, and babies clack their gums together as a sign of respect and deference to the adult horse. Most foals do not do this behaviour to people; however, it would be important for humans to behave toward foals as adult horses would behave toward a foal. That’s just my thoughts and what our family have done through the generations. Other people have different ideas.
I also am not into loose handling of foals. I might handle an adult loose because they know human society, the rules, and know their manners. Foals have too much to learn yet. So, I don’t really touch a loose foal. I walk up to them purposely, or call them to me purposely for specifically to put on their halter to lead in at night with their mom. Grooming and feet picking is done with a brush while they’re haltered. I don’t scritch even an adult horse because in my experience, it leads to horses wanting you to become their scratching posts. While a foal is learning to accept grooming, I will use my hand as the brush, specifically introducing grooming the face and body, later switching to a soft brush. After that, no hands on them at all except to put on a halter, to pick up their feet, and to stroke their neck as my reward for behavior well done. That’s just me though.
You are letting her control the situation by scratching her and petting her when SHE comes up to YOU. Then when you end the session, and she thinks it should go on, you get punished.
When you go in the field, ignore her and insist she stay away unil you invite her close. Don’t let her approach you. Do what you have to and leave. Then, when you have a chance, go back, call her/approach her and give her some attention. I don’t like to scratch them, as it often leads into unwanted behaviors as they get too involved in it. I stroke them, especially on head an face. Be sure to have a halter and lead on so you have control. Don’t do anything til you have her haltered. When you are done, turn her to face you and unclip the lead. Then leave, but keep an eye on her. She will probably be ready to go back to her mother and will leave you, but be ready to discourage her from following or approaching you. At all times, you call the shots, not her. Good luck!
A whiffle bat, a dressage whip or anything that extends your arm and put you at a safer distance. Quick smack when she is turning her but to you, before she even has a chance to kick. She will learn that her butt needs to stay away from you. But then spend time teaching her that you are allowed to touch her and that you are a safe place when she is not “playing”.
Someone told me to chase them away from the herd (her dam) for a bit. It worked for me better than physical punishment as I had a holy terror of a colt and he thought any type of spanking was playing. He really was a tough little dude and did not back away from it for long and would come back with a vengeance. He responded better to being chased away from his dam for a short ways. She is a smart girl and did not chase after him. I also spent time with him so he got to understand his “limits” and what was acceptable interaction.
Good news is it is almost three years later and he is a gentle soul. Very affectionate and attached. He still has a very strong personality but has a huge sense of fairness to go with it. He was an only foal and really liked people from the minute he was born, he just had to learn “how” to interact.
Good luck.
I did some reading in the meantime about nose blowing and actually. Rodawn’s right - sounds like plenty of reasonable professionals (well, not amateur ninnies, or NH noodles) do it, somewhat. So I feel less concerned with this aspect.
Still more thoughts/comments welcome.
Here’s another issue - I’ve got all sorts of students/boarders/family/peeps wanting to pet the foal. I hate to be a meanie and say “No!” but … wonder if (with this one, especially) I need to limit/curtail interaction.
I mean, I’ve already told my inner circle to check out this discussion for instruction on how to (help me) nip this in the bud, and, further, please to not go into her field. I’ve asked that people only to have the most rudimentary pat-thru-the-fence for the time being.
But I wonder if I should even limit that.
For now? Forever?
Sigh.
I feel like such a … disaster. And all because of one tiny demon-spawn 100 lb. baby horse. : P
Use a metal trash can lid - one of the smaller ones. When she goes to kick - let her kick the lid - just hold it by the handle and use it as a shield.
The noise will scare her a bit and kicking it won’t be very comfortable for her. Worked for us with one that was like that.
I had a boarding facility a few years ago. I just posted a notice to people notifying them that mares can be very protective of their foals and if the mares feel threatened they can get aggressive while protecting their baby, so please refrain from entering the paddock, stalls, or feeding/touching the foal.
It’s a polite notice that warns them of imminent risks.
[QUOTE=rodawn;6281502]
She is a horse. A small horse, but none the less a horse. Discipline is no different with her than it would be with a big horse. No means no. That means, no biting, no kicking, no barging into you. These deserve a sharp spank - sharp because you want to make an impression the first time. Nothing worse than even a spank turning into a game, so the spank must be sharp, sting a bit, and it’s okay for her to back away from you. Youo’ve not terrified her off all people. You’ve told her, “hey, listen up, I’m not your chew toy!” And you MUST MEAN IT. You must match the spank with a stern annoyed face, since you don’t have a pair of ears to flatten against your head. Then, immediately upon her backing off, you must remove your annoyed face and act like nothing ever happened. Never hold a grudge - horses, even adult horses, do not understand grudges. A boss mare disciplines her target and then drops it. So it must be with you. Discipline your target, then drop the issue. Repeat only if it becomes necessary. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won’t. Match the intensity she directs at you with an appropriate repercussion, then drop it again.
You don’t engage in games. Everything you do must have a purpose. But you must also be fair and you MUST BE CONSISTENT. You are there to put on her halter and lead rope, to lead her in and out to her paddock or stall, to groom her, to pick up her feet. Do not engage in games with her. You are not a plaything. You are boss mare and it’s all business. This is very hard because babies are cute… but babies grow up very quickly and become bratty, spoiled yearlings who out weigh you, out power you, and out strength you. So, in your mind, you must treat her with the expectant training attitude that you are wishing to mold her into the way you wish her to be as a fully grown horse - quiet, respectful, with good manners, exactly the way you expect an adult horse to behave.
It’s a training process - Bear in mind, she is a blank slate and knows nothing, so explaining the rules is in order (several times until she understands), but then you must be consistent in enforcing said rules.
You can spank her, once, sharp when she bites or kicks and make her back away off you. You have no doubt that boss mare would use her teeth and pinch the skin very hard, and make baby back up very quickly. Your personal space is to be minded. No rearing, no tantruming. You’ve let her get away with some behaviour now for 2 weeks, so you will have to backtrack, but you must do it now.
Every time she acts out or attempts to engage in a behaviour you don’t like, it is a training opportunity. This is the only time to train a foal. They don’t know what they don’t know, so you use these opportunities to teach them, “no this is not acceptable”, or alternatively, “yes, this is very good!” Reward the good behaviour just as much, if not more, than the naughty behaviour, so she learns the difference from when you are pleased with her and when you are annoyed. She must know the difference between the two especially and as you engage her she will start to want to try to do things to get the pleased, happy looks and pats. Always reward her good attempts at appropriate behavior.
Don’t feed her anything by hand. Ever.
You can expect a month old foal to know that they are to stand next to you without engaging their teeth, hooves, or the like. They should readily be happy to put on and take off their halter and be starting to be fairly reliable with leading. They should be well-versed with picking up their feet and have already had a visit from the farrier.
If she were out in a herd, boss mare would deal with her in no uncertain terms and how to mind her Ps and Qs.
For what it’s worth, as long as mom and babe are well bonded to each other, they can go out with another mare as long as mom is able to defend herself and her foal and nobody gets bullyish, and as long as the other mare stops trying to steal her. The extra contact with adult mares is good for foals to learn proper manners.[/QUOTE]
This is how I do it!! I have never had a foal bite, kick or strike out because of it either! In fact, here is my 2011 colt doing what he thinks is “normal”… :lol:
Best of luck with your filly.
I really dont handle my young stock much unless I am equipped and have a purpose.
It is like going to teach a horse to lunge, and only bringing a lunge line.
I would much rather have them un-handled than irrespectful.
In that vein, if you have no halter, then dont deal with her.
No touching at all outside.
And as someone else said- ignore her- YOU call the shots.
You have plenty of time to get to be her buddy, you will have 3 days of golden opportunity when she is weaned and insecure.
Right now let her be a filly, and learn horse manners from other mares.
If she still thinks to take a swing at you, as other people have said, you will need to make her think she is going to die from the consequence. Once punishment is meted out, then go back to being neutral.
For farrier etc, that should happen inside and you WILL HAVE a halter (lol) and you will have worked that angle (standing for a few minutes at a time) when she is in the stall at night, or whatever.
As for your people friends spoiling her, maybe put a note or something saying something about aggressive mothers, and biting/kicking foals? (Or do as I once did) and a boarding place, I put a note saying “dont touch horse he has ringworm”-it worked:-)
Good luck, stay firm:-)
I’m smiling gently b/c I just love it all. Horse people are wonderful, intuitive, funny and dotty, all in varying degrees and in various stages of experience with equally wonderful, intuitive, funny and dotty horses.
There’s some great advice here, as many of us have had similar things happen, with different foalie temperaments and different results.
You sound like a kind, thinking type of gal, so I encourage you not to doubt your own experiences and instincts with horses, either. That, and between all the bits of what we give you, something will work! She’s but a week old and although I am most certainly not saying that correction isn’t required, keep it in context.
Initially I would not turn my back to her after any lovin’ up session in case she did something fire-cracker like, that I wouldn’t see coming. I would instead step away while facing her, and more often than not they walk into that space. I’d give a stern warning “easy” with a raised finger and eyebrow. This is my first The Boss-mare’s Annoyed Pinned-EarFace-warning thing. This often distracts or puzzles them enough to forget their initial intent. I’d then turn my body sideways so she’d come alongside me and where I’d continue away from her with my pair of eyes in the back of my head peeled, just in case.
Just watch for any escalation in intention. In that environment when you can almost see them inflate or bundle up in body collection to do something, and b/c she can no longer pop out at you when you’re in front or alongside, I would crank it up a notch to a louder “No!” with a PO’d Mare Ugly Face and step threateningly forward into her front space again with big arm waves. I found this scares or surprises them enough to scoot off rather than go through with anything in the original plan.
The mesage: If you’re going to play, I don’t want to a part of it.
Also, take heart! I had one like that in my breeding program. Within seconds of her birth and still soaking wet, it was so obvious that this leggy little dervish radiated with communication and she made it clear that she had opinions, goals and a mission and would be fiercely independent. In general, things that worked with the others simply did not always go over very well with her. That said, once we found a comms frequency together I could do tons more, far sooner than any of the others as she also turned out to be much, much smarter, way quicker to pick up things (and have opinions on them, too!) very affectionate, brilliantly fast reflexes, energetically playful and bold – a thoroughly likeable filly, but a handful. She did everything is excess. Always hungry, the most talkative, the most inquisitive, the fluffiest, the cutest, the flashiest, the fastest, the sleepiest…She also snuggled best; You could ‘spoon’ in front of her and rest your cheek on hers while she slept, or, she slept with her head on your lap and snored so the rafters shuddered; she would take vaccines lying down if she didn’t feel like getting up, she was first to “allow” herself to be hosed/fly sprayed/led away from the herd/lift feet, etc BUT: With her we most certainly had to tweak usual handling methods in order to direct/teach her to be a solid citizen, without crushing that wonderful spirit.
Years ago when I stood my first stallion - Spot Pocket - who was as goofy and laid back and kind as they come, I bred a really nice, laid back, kind TB mare to him. The filly came out Hell on Wheels and on Day 1, when I was crouching down in the stall trying to “bond” with her, she spied me in the stall, pinned her ears flat back, flew at me and tried to “bite” me with her gums then wheeled around and tried to double barrel me for good measure. I was horrified, the BO laughed and said “Dont worry- she’ll grow out of it!” but I really thought as a newbie breeder I needed to get a handle on this behaviour - fast!
So - called up a friend who regularily foaled out 50-79 mares a season and she said you nip it in the bid now, while she is small or you will be very very sorry if you allow it to continue
So - back into the stall I went, and this time when the filly flew at me and spun to kick, I stood up, yelled a loud “NO!” and kicked her in the ass before she could kick me.
She went skittering back to hide behind Mama with a look of total surprise, peeked around her tail at me and was amazed this thing “kicked” and hurt!
She tried it a few more times - each attempt more half hearted than the one before and each time I was able to land a solid kick on her ass and she wasnt able to make contact with me and then it was over in a couple of days. She always had a “sharp” personality but she never tried to kick me again - thank goodness!
I absolutely DO handle the foals from the very beginning. They do get their legs picked up, they get stroked, a halter gets put on as well as a fly mask and they are held for a few seconds many times a day. They get lightly misted with water to get used to the “hsssing” sound of the sprayer.
Good luck with your filly!
I once had a week old foal litterly leap up on me. I caught him in the air and paddled him. Turned him loose and he went and hid behind the mare to peek at the big ol’ MEAN person. Colt was never out of line again and turned into the sweetest horse!
Gg stables got it exactly - cutest fluffiest prettiest biggest bestlooking etc. And, we see, smartest.
I love love love the wisdom here. I think most do-able is the “ears pinned eyes flashing teeth bared” boss mare reaction.
I love this. You get it done, but you also appreciate and even benefit from their innate and very unique personalities. :yes:
We halter babies the day after they are born. And we do teach them to lead from the first time they leave the stall which is usually day 2 after they are born. This becomes their normal.
Kick back. 
Seriously, just be consistent, firm, and fair. We had a devil of a filly for 3 months, starting at 3 hours old. She grew out of her “Kick If You Touch My Butt And Rear If You Go A Direction I Don’t Want To” and went on to rule the herd, and is now at the track and a babydoll to deal with.
