Question about circling between elements.
Does USEA have any rules for eventing derbies in these regards? Can I circle in stadium, or no?
Fun thread!
I have only jump judged at small unrecognized events and seen my share of funny / scary stuff.
I think the best one was an Elementary rider on a (very bored) seasoned horse, who was leisurely trotting to a very small coop. Horse was looking at something else in the distance and did a Ooops! stop at that jump. Rider then turns him to represent, but there was a T/P fence right next to it. Narrow slanted table with brush on top. Horse takes one look at THAT fence and leaps over it. Backwards. Rider somehow stays on, a bit shaken up( I OTOH almost had a heart attack! ) and thought she was eliminated but I told her to keep going.
I need to read all those rules again, it has been so long and I want to be UTD on all the changes.
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Omg I wish there was video of that!
@OverandOnward
Very good advice - I have always been told (and tell people) to hold out and count on your fingers until the rider is through. No looking down, writing anything until the rider has passed your jump – and THEN, write rider #1, description of horse/rider colors, and brief description of incident right then and there, while the memory is still fresh. You think you will remember it, but you’d be surprised how much horses/riders start to look and seem the same especially when it is hot and you are on hour eight of your volunteer shift. :yes:
I had something similar happen years ago as a rider, and also had it contested and lifted. In my case, I believe the JJ looked away because she had two fences on field to judge (not uncommon when volunteers are sparse) and it just happened that both myself and the other rider approached our respective fences at the same time due to some Murphy’s Law shenanigans and a previous hold on course. Anyway, I think the JJ must have looked towards her and came back to see me halfway done with my circle (which was unrelated to my approach to the fence) and assumed the circle was a representation. I was circling because I didn’t feel his canter was balanced enough coming out of the water, and had circled before he saw the fence. It happens. I contested with the TD, and luckily had a friend who had video-taped it on a camera, and we got to show it to the TD.
Another thing – as a JJ, always pick a spot where you can clearly see the entire jump – including the two flags of said jump. Meaning you can 100% tell with certainty that the horse passed through those flags and no other. This is particularly imperative if it is a jump that is right next to other jumps of a higher or lower level - not uncommon around here for one side to be BN, the middle to be N, and the other side to be Training or some such. One year at AECs, following what we thought was a clear XC from my younger sister and my TB, we saw a score posted saying that my sister was eliminated. We inquired with the TD and she said that the JJ said she jumped the wrong fence at the beginning of the course. The JJ thought my sister had jumped the Training level hanging log instead of her BN logpile. Having seen my sister go over the BN fence in question since it was visible from the start-box, we contested it and asked the JJ where she had been sitting. Turned out she had sat up on a hill at an angle to the fence, and therefore could not tell if you jumped the BN or the T side of the fence. That was a learning experience in more ways than one.
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Excellent point about the angle of view of the jj. And watching the flags very carefully when there could be any doubt if an approaching rider will pass between the flags. Especially when the different levels of jumps are lined up alongside each other, as it isn’t always obvious that they are headed for the wrong one. And, remembering that if they do jump the wrong one, they do have the opportunity to come back and correct the mistake, until they have jumped the next jump in the number order.
As a jj I also had a rider contest one of my calls, but I was able to back up my account with the information that the rider & horse’s body were between me and the flag, and obscured my view of the flag while they trotted past the ditch rather than over the ditch.
The ‘ditch’ being on a sub-BN, unrecognized entry level course, and consisting of one small revetting timber that was mostly sunk into the ground, with a small dip behind it. I don’t think most of the horses even realized it was a ‘ditch’. It was the middle of a hot summer and the entire landscape was sun-blasted dust and dead grass, and nothing stood out visually. This large, stout hony just faded a tiny bit to the left to save itself a few inches of the extra effort of stepping across the ‘ditch’. I genuinely think the pre-teen kid didn’t realize that he was barely on the wrong side of the flag, in the heat, dust and tiresomeness of posting a trot all the way around a small version of a XC course. I was very sorry he didn’t get a completion at his first ever horse trial. It was one of those times when I wished a jump judge could say just one thing to save a rider the penalties! 
I had a similar situation this year. There was a jump on the novice course near sj, which was set up at an unusual place (my horse is pretty familiar with this venue). As I was approaching the jump my horse spooked hard and I had to circle back to the jump. I thought we had presented to the jump and it was a stop. So I just cruised through the rest of the course at a leisurely pace.
But as it turns out I was not quite facing the jump but facing all the activity up at sj, which is what he spooked at. So we did not have a stop but had a million time penalties. I briefly mentioned what had happened on FB, and it turned out the jj was an acquaintance of mice and a FB friend. She told me her view of what had happened, said that she had discussed it with the TD, who had agreed it was NOT a stop.
And so went my AEC qualifying score, since we were in 1st or 2nd heading into XC. Although I am sure we still would have had time penalties due to the stop, circle and overall slowness of my crossbred who gallops like the carriage horse he is bred to be.
What a bummer! 
But your horse is adorable…
Thank you all for the interesting discussion and sharing. I want to make a note that the jump judging relationship is a fiduciary one - You don’t have to know it all, but experience is a teacher :encouragement: The biggest take away is that you are there as the eyes and you need to carefully pay attention when a rider is at your fence… Even if you know nothing a person can record in detail what they see happen. Then you call for the TD so that they have a fresh idea of what the problem was. I hope this thread is helping to let people know what they might see and how necessary the detail is.
Carefully record. Add something descriptive about horse and rider. Record even when something does work itself out and rider goes clear bc sometimes it may come up and also some things may establish a relevant history of the ride ie horse being sticky and a later refusal with same issues, dangerous riding, something that took up some major time so that a time dispute has some history to refer back on. Anything to make a TD’s job easier - that’s been my goal when I’m coordinator.
There is a sticky above that I posted about time disputes that some of you may not have seen in the past. https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/eventing/339875-can-you-successfully-challenge-cross-country-time-penalties And I may add this thread as reference also. And THANK YOU, even if you have a boring day and nothing exciting happens at your fence. And I agree everyone thinks it’s fun to judge the higher levels but the fun starts at N/BN. You get to see so many more ‘different kind’ of rides. And you really do develop an eye for when you see it done right.
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Another point to make for the riders. Call out, if you’re circling, or something else happens so the jump judge knows it’s your plan. And tip your horse’s face when you do so it doesn’t look like the horse was presented to the fence.
DD had a refusal run-out called on her without a presentation bc she wasn’t vocal. It happened when a dog jumped off a golf cart parked at that fence and ran out aggressively, JRT (and we’ve enjoyed the breed but haven’t had any of the real aggressive buggers). The horse bowed out shying from the action of the dog, the horse never saw the fence. My daughter should have called out ‘dog problem’ when it happened, the fence judge didn’t associate it.
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Another tip for riders who think, or know, that they had a stop, or in any way picked up penalties on XC, as is illustrated by some of the anecdote above …
No matter what just happened, keep riding on your plan !!! 
As they say in football, ride with amnesia as to what just happened and focus only on what is coming up next.
No matter how certain you are that you are hopelessly down on penalty points, it may turn out that either other riders at the top of the leaderboard also have problems and penalties, and/or you didn’t get tagged with the penalties for some technical reason. Of course, maybe you did get the penalties and dropped down the placings, but maybe you are still in the race! :yes: And it is worth getting the experience that you came for, regardless - that is the biggest payoff, after all.
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Yes, this ^ ^ ^ - definitely! 😊
Unless, of course, you are stopped by the jump judge - in which case do what the nice jump judge says…
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Very interesting thread! I am in the area of MACTA, and I know a few of you are in this area. Slightly OT, but I have offered to volunteer at several events over the last couple of years, No one ever calls me! I came out once a couple of years ago to help paint a couple of jumps, but nothing else. My horse has been gone for over 10 years, so I haven’t been a member, but I would still like to help. Any takers?
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Thanks! He would agree:lol:
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My guess - Most likely it is a broken communications system with volunteers, especially new volunteers, not lack of need. It is rare to find a horse trials that is over-stocked with volunteers.
The adeptness of the volunteer coordination of any horse trials can range from expert management to completely haphazard. Sometimes things get missed, like new help.
Between horse trials, check the website of the facility that stages the horse trials and go through their ‘contact us’ to ask them to put you in touch with the volunteer coordinator for their next event. Then make personal contact with the volunteer coordinator to make sure they are aware of you and are on their email list. This is more likely to put you on their radar as a serious volunteer, not just someone who clicks things at random on the web and then ghosts any further contact.
https://useventing.com/events-competitions/volunteers
Maybe there is something at that link that will help connect you? It’s a blizzard of information, for sure.
If you are really motivated and willing to give up a day for an uncertain outcome, show up early (before 8 am) at an event on XC day and tell the registration desk you would like to volunteer for the day as a floater, in any capacity, if they will refer you to the right person. Keep asking people who look important until they pass you over to the volunteer coordinator. Very likely you will get a job for a few hours, at least! And you can leave with more information about the best way to be on the radar, and on the coordinator’s email list.
Somewhere there is, or was, an app or a website that had events all over the country that needed volunteers. You could sign up for a specific position at any event in the country. It’s been a while since I looked at it, so I don’t know if it is still active.
It sounds crazy that organizations that desperately need volunteers are sometimes so bad at taking on newbies, but it’s not unusual among non-profit organizations. New volunteers have to be ready to beat on the door rather firmly (figuratively speaking) before the organization wakes up and eventually let you in (while crying for more volunteers, usually).
Also, you can be a member of most eventing/horse trials organizations (including the USEA) with or without a horse, and even if you don’t compete. The USEA even has a lower cost “supporting” membership for people like yourself. Your local eventing organization probably does as well.
Good luck, keep working different channels to make contact with volunteer coordinators and I’m sure you’ll be put to work!
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Having trouble quoting today, but the website mentioned by OverandOnward for eventing volunteers is https://www.eventingvolunteers.com/. It’s widely used by events in Area II, not sure about other Areas.
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Wanted to resurrect this thread and say thank you to the OP and all those that chimed in with tips and link to the XC rules. I reviewed them and being a 3rd year eventer, I learned a lot. Didn’t realize how quickly they would help me! I went to a HT this weekend and after a few sketchy strides approaching a big brush/table, my split second relief of making it over caused me to miss a R turn to my next jump. Instead I went straight ahead towards a Training jump. As I realized my mistake, I knew it was “legal” to circle back and approach my obstacle, and completed the course within the time.
If this had happened to me before reading all the XC ground rules, I probably would have pulled up, hung my head and walked off…thinking my going off course meant that I was DQ’d. I had also been under the common impression that ANY crossing of your path was a DQ offense. Now I know that’s only if it’s between an A/B element or if you circle directly in front of your next obstacle. So thank you COTHers. You saved my bacon this weekend as we were double clear!
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Yay!
Excellent
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New Rule Refresher articles on USEA website, xc below others on the R hand sidebar
https://useventing.com/news-media/news/rule-refresher-the-cross-country-test
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A million times this. Unless you enjoy pointed conversations with the TD about why you continued to present to a fence after reaching your refusal limit, being notified by the jump judge, and acknowledging that you’ve heard said JJ. Don’t be that guy.
I volunteer with MACTA. They really really really need help painting jumps the 21st and the 28th. I’ll be going out the 28th and am dragging my boyfriend along to help. I sign up through the eventingvolunteers app, but also have current board members as FB friends so get alerts that way. You can see the sign ups here: https://www.eventingvolunteers.com/e…4xlbajhhgEMuFo and if you you want to help but the sign up site doesn’t work contact Julie Wolfert via FB and I’m sure she’d love to get you set up On that page you will see a tab that says “Event Days” and click that to see all the days through the rest of the year that need help. Red means volunteers have signed up and green means they need volunteers… there is way too much green so anyone and everyone close to Heritage Park c’mon down and help out!
I don’t think anyone really does the calls. It is all through the eventingvolunteers site and/or app which streamlines everything. The great thing about the app is it can send you alerts when new volunteer opportunities are available, but otherwise isn’t intrusive at all. Just “here we need volunteers on these days” and then will remind you when you have signed up and it gets close to the day.
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