I got pulled up for the first time today due to a loose horse and I’m really thankful for this thread as it was fresh in my mind what the procedure is! Otherwise I would have been at a total loss haha.
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SJ tip. Wait for the whistle. Even if the process is enter/go to run on time there ‘may’ be a glitch if the sj judge is going over something with their scribe, back up timer, etc. So if you start your round and no one is timing it there’s not much room for forgiveness… I know sometimes hard to hear so present yourself maybe hand to your ear so they’ll know you don’t know.
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That would make a great book!! Even after all these years of competing and volunteering, I learn something every single time.
At the last event I was XC jump judging at, I was assigned two jumps. I stationed myself and my car between the jumps. It was one jump then a long left turn to the next and I was on the inside of that turn with the sun behind me. It was the best vantage point. I don’t generally like being on the back side of the jump but here is where I could see both jumps best. I was about 20 ft off the cut grass. The first rider ran behind my car - so well off the cut lane. Then a few riders, went infront of me, then another behind me. I did move my chair closer to my car after two horses cut the path close to me. At this point the TD was getting to my jump as he was doing a beginning of the day drive around. So, I asked him if I should move and he said no, the path is there for a reason. As long as I’m not IN the path, then it isn’t my problem.
Later on when the person collecting the sheets stopped by, she asked if I had moved and after I stated I had not, she mentioned some people complaining that I was in the way. It was a friendly conversation but I relayed to her what the TD had told me.
That’s the first time I ever experienced that but I did have words with a local big name trainer when I was working the gate for stadium jumping. He tried to just put himself in the line wherever he wanted because he had multiple horses. I was not going by order of go as much as when people were ready so if I had a list of 5 people, he was not eligible to just cut that line because I did not find him any more important than the amateurs. After that, he had his groom (who had been there anyway) talk to me about when he would be ready with each successive horse - so if she said “Oh, it will take about 10 horses going for him to warm up this one” I would put him in line there. We got along fine at successive shows.
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I had a similar experience as warm-up steward with a BNT in the stadium warm-up ring. He expected to put his riders in whenever, after I had already promised other riders that it would be their time to go, and the other riders had prepared and presented themselves at the in-gate, ready for their round. Once or twice, maybe not a big deal, but it began to happen again and again. It was starting to push back the rides of the other riders.
I wish that BNT had had an assistant to play a similar role.The other poor hot tired horses and riders were not getting their chance to go at the moment when they were at their best and ready. He would claim “I have to be in another ring, my riders have to go now so I can leave”. But he didn’t leave each time he claimed he “had to go to another ring” - he clearly had a number of riders in that class. We were on a hill and I could see what was going on in the other ring he said he had to go to, and I figured out that he had a lot more time than he claimed. So it seemed that he was bs’ing for unfair advantage, and as this went on, I could see that the other riders thought so as well.
I finally told him nicely but firmly that when he wanted a horse to go, they would go immediately after those I had already promised (only about 2-3 horses, so we’re talking maybe 5-6 minutes as each round started almost as soon as the last one finished). If he could please factor that in as his riders did their last bit of warm-up, and everyone would get the ride time they needed.
I’m sorry to say that his petulant scrunched-grouchy-face tantrum at this news didn’t put the sport or himself in a good light in front of everyone who could see it, considering just what a BN he was (is) in that area. So I pointed out that his riders could do their round and he could be going on his way in less than 10 minutes, well in time for the other ring class. And that the other riders had an equal right to do their round when they had been told they would go.
Everyone could see and hear him and lots of people were staring at him. He shut up. Thankfully he really did have only a very few riders left to go and was soon gone. I think it was a relief to most of the people there to see that BNT depart that warm-up ring.
I had someone tell me later that while he was considered a pillar of that eventing community in other ways, he was (is) notorious for his behavior in warm-up rings. And I’m sure he’s not the only one.
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In all honesty, I have been that person who has gone in the uncut grass for a wide line to a jump. Once a rider had gone around meas a jump judge, I would have moved my chair no matter what the TD had said. I have seen a few jumps where everyone was going around in the tall grass to get a better line, especially on that special horse that needs a protracted line because if they don’t get a long look, they can’t even, lol.
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That’s what I was thinking as well. I would err on the side of the rider in this case.
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GOOD FOR YOU, @OverandOnward :applause:
That took some stones. What an arse of a BNT! (I would be curious as to your area; we have a few in Area 2, though most of them are “better behaved” than that.)
And why is it (almost always) the MALE trainers?? Lots of naked emperors out there, whose followers are slavishly devoted - and this is an even more bigtime problem in the Hunters. Way too few stewards put their foot down and demand that these demigods follow the same rules as the rest of the “rabble”!
I would like to think! that your obnoxious BNT learned a lesson from this, but I suspect this is just his M.O. and that he gets away with it on the regular, so will continue as long as he people allow him to most of the time.
A personal anecdote from about 9 years ago. I was coaching a student who was riding my P mare (she was going N), and we were at one of the most popular venues in Area 2, SJ warmup ring.
A VERY!! well-known and famous BNT (two of them, actually) were working with a clearly “overhorsed” student whose horse was behaving pretty badly; student was a young teenager IIRC. They basically commandeered the warmup by dismantling the WU jumps and making a gymnastic exercise with placing poles, and had the student work over it again and again, coaching LOUDLY. There was a good bit of yelling, The student appeared overwhelmed and the horse was very fractious, so they spend a good long time working with the pair, and during this, all the other competitors lurked along the edges of the ring or just stood there on their horses, waiting for them to finish so they could do some jumps.
Of course no one said anything to them, even though they were clearly “holding up production.”
:mad:
There was a complete sense of entitlement, which I found shocking and disillusioning…
EVENTUALLY they finished, took their student up to the competition ring, and someone restored the warmup jumps to their previous positions so that riders could get back to business.
But good grief…
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Interesting story Dr.D. I have never seen that happen, although I have seen a coach lower a warmup fence for a panicked horse and rider, get them over once or twice and then withdraw from the competition.
Only other time I saw a fence modification was at a schooling show where a locally BNT put his jacket over a fence in warm up to give the horse and rider a little more challenge or confidence, I guess. He took it off and they did their round. When I was warming up I asked my friend to put her hat under the fence to give my looky mare something to stare at and we were admonished that fence modification (other than height) wasn’t permitted. So there you go.
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I guess it depends , but I would have had to move my chair and my car and it wasn’t for someone to go wide, it was to cut the corner. There were limited spots where I could see both jumps. The people that went behind me were going about 50 ft off the grass to cut the corner - this was at Prelim level. They were more likely cutting the turn to cut time. I had a Olympic level riders on course and none of them cut at all.
…|
…X
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If that worked well, basically the two lines are the jumps and the X is where my car was. Going behind me was REALLY cutting the corner. when my chair was closer to the cut grass, I moved it but I would either have to move my car to the other side in order to be out of the way which is cumbersome and time consuming during a level and would have put the sun in my eyes and made my view worse with the hill.
I’ve witnessed similar warm-up jump dismantling to what Dr. Doolittle describes in two situations. The first was a few years ago at a local HT during the Prelim stadium warm up. Several BNR in the area were being coached by a BNT from jumper land. He not only “claimed” jumps but also dismantled them. For example, he completely took apart the ONE oxer in warm up and made it into a bounce and then one-stride exercise for his riders. Several of us AA riders complained, but no one would say anything against the BNT.
The second example was a bit less extreme and I think actually okay per the rules. There were four fences in warm up (crossrail, vertical, and two oxers). A rider was having issues and her trainer dismantled just one of the oxers to build an exercise for her, leaving the other three fences still accessible and as laid out by the rules.
:winkgrin: thank you <bows> :lol:
It wasn’t Area II. Apparently the type is spread around the country a bit. 
Actually I’ve seen the guy in many w-u rings and that’s the first time I personally ever noticed a problem. However he is on his own wavelength in w-u - but most trainers are, regardless of bona fides. I once whispered in the ear of another w-u steward, one who was not an eventer and had no clue who he was, that she didn’t need to chivvy him to get to the in-gate for his ride time, as he’s one who gets there with no wait for his horse. That he could do on his own. 
Just a couple of weekends ago, I was muttering with another warm-up observer that, in eventing, you can’t teach a kid to ride in the w-u ring! How to hold the reins, how to steer to the jump … etc.
I actually know some TD’s who will step in and ask if the rider should go out of the start box — if they know and observe this going on in w-u. But in that case it was a simple speed bump course and it looked as if the pony could probably do it by himself, while keeping a rider upright.
The tolerance for the extreme w-u fence-rebuild behavior is jaw-dropping to me as well. It’s flat-out rule-breaking and unfair advantage. But people tend to keep quiet, the other riders, show management, and everyone else who is frowning hard at the miscreants.
But I am well aware that some of the BNT’s who take advantage of their position bring large strings of entries to the show. Typically, the BNT in my story provides up to 30% of the entries in several of the larger recognized events in the areas. I’ve known that group to bring as many as 40 horses, spread across every level, BN to I. Organizers don’t want to p’ them off and have them elect to just skip their next event.
Of course it’s not a good look that some of the BNT’s demonstrate the opposite of sportsmanship. But of course it is a universal problem in all sports - some powerful people show their level of character based on the circumstances, unfortunately sometimes.
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Yes indeed, right on all points.
(And LOL!, take a well-deserved bow! You are my new hero :winkgrin:)
It’s an impossible situation, since as you point out the BNTs bring in a LOT of business, and management doesn’t want to bite the proverbial hand that feeds them. The same problem exists in the Hunters, where reprehensible behavior on the part of BNTs is ignored and tolerated since they reliably bring truckloads of students and $$$, so they"look the other way" when they scoff at the rules, behave rudely and exhibit a sense of entitlement - they are “bulletproof” and they know it.
:mad:
I LIKE!!! (hahahaha) to think that eventers are better behaved (and have superior character) because our sport is more humbling than most; that should result in fewer Divas.
In a perfect world, anyway.
But as you say - it’s a universal problem with no clear solution. Show organizers NEED to make a profit or we are all SOL.
My family says I believe in a Meritocracy and this is my downfall (I am regularly frustrated by badly behaved people getting away with things and well-behaved people not getting their due, and the fact that there is no fairness in the world!)
Such is the world we live in.
:sigh:
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Regardless of their position …
Some people choose to live by an honorable code of conduct, integrity, and at least trying to do the right thing. Even though it is hard! 
Some people choose otherwise.
It was ever thus.
As it is said, status (and wealth) doesn’t change people. It makes them more who they really are.
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Excellent point(s)
Sport really magnifies and exposes character - both good and bad. Especially bad!
And that whole “power corrupts” thing is also true in all areas of life. :sigh:
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Such a great thread! enjoyed reading through it. I’ve been jump judging for decades and I still learned some stuff. A few things:
- Two smacks is two smacks. If a rider gives a horse one or two on the way to the fence, then one there, then a couple more on the shoulder - this is not acceptable. Of course you can let it go. But it is more than two and by the letter of the rule you have to report it. Let the TD and the rider discuss it but as an observer it is your job to notice. If the horse is backing off that much that a rider has to utilize the whip to reinforce the leg aid multiple times - there’s more trouble there than is acceptable for a recognized event cross-country course. The rules say two for a reason.
- Never jump an unflagged obstacle.
Never jump an obstacle that is bigger than what you are jumping on your course. (This is why you pay attention and look at other obstacles while you are walking your course.)
Never jump something backwards.
All will get you eliminated or yellow carded, but worse will scare your horse. - Competition is not schooling!
If your horse has never seen water, the time to teach him how to negotiate it is not on course at a recognized event…the ability to go thru water then jump thru your flagged obstacle is nice, but its also a bit on the living dangerously side. Many water jumps have lots of flags and lots of obstacles around them, and can be confusing - make CERTAIN by checking with the TD that your planned schooling route is not going to affect your course path. I have seen this happen many times, about half the time a rider does a schooling in the water path I’ve had them go thru the flags without meaning to, go thru something backwards, or otherwise make a booboo while trying to get the horses feet wet. Teach your horse by your body position in the saddle and the leg position you hold what is coming. I speak to my horse and tell him, Water. Really. It works - they are just animals, they can be trained. The jump judge is there to observe not rule on what you did. - As a jump judge bear in mind most of the time the rider will get the call - so if you really really REALLY are sure they did something wrong, unless you have video, likely you will be overturned. Rarely does a TD side with a jump judge over something that has been disputed…And even with video. So let it go. Don’t make it personal. And put it in your event evaluation which can be anonymous.
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Another point is that to keep in mind that the final call on the rules is up to the TD, not the jump judge or other volunteer. As a volunteer, this actually gets you off the hook! It isn’t you who has to eliminate or penalize someone. As retreadeventer said, notice, observe and pass the information along to the TD.
And not just jump judging eliminations. If you think something is amiss at warm-up, start box, finish line, dressage bit check, or wherever else something comes up, don’t make a ruling yourself. If a rider doesn’t want to go from warm-up to the start-box at their ride time but wants to be worked into the order later; a trainer raising or lowering jumps in warm-up; a rider canters into the start box; a rider misses the finish flags, realizes the error and circles through them backwards, then rides off and dismounts … and so on. The good news is that your job is just to call it in, not lower the boom on them yourself. Let the TD handle it, that’s their job.
And whenever you are reporting / making notes on anything, no matter what it is, note down identifying characteristics. It is all so clear in the moment, but an hour later will you remember the details of who it was? Those descriptive notes will help if someone says “they made a mistake, it wasn’t me!”
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I’ve volunteered at our local event for many years. Stating how many would be embarrassing, ao I won’t go there. There are recognized competitions and unrecognized. I’ve had a variety of jobs assigned including jump judge, ring steward, fence crew, scribing, scoring, area steward, starter, shuttle and I’m probably forgetting some. But tomorrow will be a first. I’ll be Control! Will check in with thoughts afterward. it’ll be interesting having that perspective.
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Control is one of the most interesting positions. Hope you have a great experience, interested in your thoughts afterward!
BTW … plan bathroom breaks carefully! :winkgrin: Because there is minimal time between divisions, and you have to have the jump judge roll call done and course ready for the starter in time to get the first rider off on time, you have even less time than the jump judges. Although you may be positioned much closer to a portapotty than they are.
Good news: that wasn’t a problem! My day provided an interesting perspective on eventing and I very much enjoyed it. All of the fence judges were very experienced, and I asked them to cut me some slack if needed. Everyone handled their assignments and walkie talkies well, and were also good on noting potential issues in the making. We had only one elimination due to cumulative refusals, avoided any overtaking situations and had two rider falls which were of no real consequence (checked out medically, however).
Kudos to the organizers and course designers. The course was so well laid out that there was sufficient space between competitors sent out at 2 minutes and it was rare for fence judges to step on each other’s transmissions even with two or three horses on course.
The Control perspective is of the whole picture. I’m sure it’s much more challenging on higher level courses, but I found that having a mental helicopter view of where in the course riders were as well as an awareness of time to next horse out of the box and their progress was enough to keep me busy and entertained. A rhythm developed with fence judges calling in that allowed me to “see” if a horse was going so slowly that overtaking was a possibility, or if a competitor was flowing around. I’m usually in XC scoring for the recognized event which also affords a complete picture of a course, but not in real time. Really enjoy both!
Re noting potential issues: this was an unrecognized BN and E event and the philosophy is that it’s for fun and education. If a judge notices a rider with pace issues (too fast for the course in this case) or a fondness for using a whip, they’ll mention it so that those farther down the course will also keep an eye and involve the TD if some guidance is needed. Some very green horses and equally green riders compete (generally not in the same pair) so judgement while paying attention to the rules is the order of the day.
Was very glad that I didn’t have “the famous runaway” on my day. I don’t know if it was a junior in BN or E, but one year there was a serious, complete, blue-streak runaway horse with a terrified rider on its back. Horse ran towards the fence line separating two paddocks where it competently jumped an Intermediate fence, rider stayed on in good form, and then horse decided “OK, I’m done now” and came under control. Gotta love eventing!
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