Greyhaven Sport Horses
I designed and maintain a website for a Irish Sport Horse breeder in NY. Their stallion, Silver Galtee is GORGEOUS and his offspring are all beautiful. Their website is www.greyhavensporthorses.com .
There is also a video of him on the website and he moves beautifully.
all right, all ready…
[QUOTE=SandyUHC;3711520]
<SNIP>But back to the topic – Adabulrr, you didn’t answer Sniplover, <SNIP>[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sniplover;3699586]
BTW, Can you explain to me what you mean by “black liver chestnut” with regard to Dreams Come True? Are you indicating he’s really very sooty (thus appearing black in his pictures) but tests chestnut, or…?[/QUOTE]
I keep getting asked this question - and had a very nice conversation with RiddleMeThis on the subject of determining genetic color - and we will continue the discussion!
For now, it’s a DESCRIPTION of his color, and no, I have not spent money on genetic testing on this gelding. He was born a silvery grulla color - we were certain we did have a black for a while, but he shed out with this darn silver tail 
nope, not black.
His coat is BLACK - but he sunburns to a plum or eggplant shade in the summer. Those new pictures were edited a LOT to be able to see his proportions - he is black enough to soak up all available light! hence the greyish cast in them - plus he’s putting on winter hair
He does NOT have a lighter color in his flank or on his muzzle, and the coat color is consistent over his entire hide, therefore he’s definitely not a brown or bay.
ALL of his mother’s other foals are chestnut - BRIGHT chestnut. She’s a bay - or at least she looks like a bay The RID sire is near black - though not what I’d term a true black, more black bay or very dark brown - he DOES have brown shading in his coat.
An old time Morgan breeder told me that they get quite a few horses colored like this - born grulla, like a black, but with silver tail and sometimes mane, and that they are liver chestnuts. For right now, that’s good enough for me!
Maybe if I don’t get laid off, and economy picks up next year, etc etc, I’ll have some extra to spend on getting a slew of them DNA tested for color. We do have a few oddballs…
Iiinteresting. I’d never heard of that color description before, and try to keep myself up to date on color stuff, since I find simple Mendelian inheritance of traits fun!! I am a nerdy scientist, who knew? :lol:
Didn’t know that it’s a somewhat touchy subject. 
Your mare, being a bay, must be EE or Ee. Since she’s had chestnut foals by stallions that carry the chestnut allele, she must be Ee. Snowford O’Donnell appears to be EE, as he has no chestnut offspring any where I can find (any boy do I enjoy looking at them!!). The only base coat your foal can have is Ee or EE; both encode black. He might be bay over that, since your mare has clearly carries at least one agouti allele.
If you were going to test him for anything down the road, I’d just go for agouti! I’d love to know what causes the silver tail! It’s super cute and so is he 
[QUOTE=sniplover;3712120]
Iiinteresting. I’d never heard of that color description before, and try to keep myself up to date on color stuff, since I find simple Mendelian inheritance of traits fun!! I am a nerdy scientist, who knew? :lol:<SNIP>
Oh boy… WAAAAYYY over my head, but that’s all good!
<SNIP>
<SNIP>
Your mare, being a bay, must be EE or Ee. Since she’s had chestnut foals by stallions that carry the chestnut allele, she must be Ee. Snowford O’Donnell appears to be EE, as he has no chestnut offspring any where I can find (any boy do I enjoy looking at them!!). The only base coat your foal can have is Ee or EE; both encode black. He might be bay over that, since your mare has clearly carries at least one agouti allele.
If you were going to test him for anything down the road, I’d just go for agouti! I’d love to know what causes the silver tail! It’s super cute and so is he :D[/QUOTE]
Cripes, me too… I’d ESPECIALLY like to figure out how to get that gorgeous dark coat, with silvery tail AND mane… I can spell “automatic value increase” due to extra chrome!
As to the stallion (Snowford O’Donnell) throwing blacks - eeehhh, I’m really kinda picky on blacks. Too many people say they have blacks, and then you see the horse, with the tan hair on his nose, or in his flanks, or around his ears… NOT black, IMHO. There are a ton of O’D offspring around here, I’ve had hands on many of them - and I’ve not seen a true black in the bunch, despite what owners may insist. They are shiny black-ish horses, but not true black.
NOW, it’s going to be interesting to see what we get from Dreamer’s mama (the chestnut producing bay) bred to our grey son of a TRUE BLACK RID stallion, Touch of the Blues.
Crap shoot, I know… but TOTB’s mama was a liver chestnut, and he HAS thrown some incredible true blacks.
So, Sniplover, roll your Mendelian dice - what are the color chances on THIS cross? Here’s the baby’s first picture
http://irishhuntersandjumpers.com/Images/Oliver/2009foals/Pleasy-scan.jpg
Pictures or vid
IDxAnglo-arab
http://www.benmarfarm.com/belfreyirishdraughtfoals.html
An Irish Draughtx Arab cross here along with several other IDs and ID crosses
http://useventing.com/blog/?p=226
THis is the approved ID x Arabian cross
http://www.equiworld.net/uk/ezine/0702/irishhorse3.htm
In Great Britain
http://www.horsetrading.co.uk/show_horsedetails.asp?hid=43956
of course Playland
http://www.playlandequestriancenter.com/2004.html
A video of a Playland bred mare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_8ZCwnxZHw
[QUOTE=AdAblurr02;3712445]
despite what owners may insist[/QUOTE]
Adablurr, sounds like you won’t know what color your horse really is until you get the test results. [QUOTE=AdAblurr02;3712445]For right now, that’s good enough for me![/QUOTE]
might not be good enough when you are making comments about a stallion and his offsprings’ color on a public forum.
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Here’s the baby’s first picture
http://irishhuntersandjumpers.com/Images/Oliver/2009foals/Pleasy-scan.jpg[/QUOTE]
Looks like a dapple grey to me, LOL. 
:lol: I will look at the odds after the seminar i’m about to go to!
Sakura…
I noticed Clover Cliste has been added to the SHN Payback for 2009. Just wanted to bring it to your attention…
interesting topic for me and very timely - we are just thinking about purchasing a RID OR Cross as a future eventer for one of my sons.
If anyone knows of any fillies that look to be on the large size, bay and between weanling and 3 yrs old but not yet backed, pm me.
Prefer canada or north or eastern US.
thanks for all the information.
[QUOTE=sniplover;3712643]
Looks like a dapple grey to me, LOL. :lol: I will look at the odds after the seminar i’m about to go to! :)[/QUOTE]
Sniplover, I stumbled across this old thread - thought I would let you know you called it 100% correctly
http://www.irishhuntersandjumpers.com/Pretty%20Please.html
Pretty Please, first baby of our stallion, foaled May 13, 2009 - his birthday, and a very special girl she is!
DAPPLES - lotsa dapples, PINK dapples (she was a classic rose gray her first three years). Now rising five, 17 hands, 9-1/2 inch cannon and still drop dead gorgeous
I love my Irish/TB cross mare. She is by Bank’s Fee Daniel and out of a really sweet TB mare Stage Door View. She has tried everything I have thrown at her, eventing, hunting and dressage but the best part about her is that I can throw her in the field when I am busy and pick up at the same point I left off. Only down side is that she can be a little “looky” at fences in the ring but out cross country she will jump anything you point her at. She also knows that she can tear any halter apart if she wants to but otherwise I wouldn’t change anything about her. She has great feet, is easy to maintain and has three very comfortable gaits. Unfortunately too often the dressage judges have said she is a very “handsome horse”. I would like to eventually breed her to a really nice TB stallion in hopes of getting something a little more refined. Picture of her can be seen at:
http://cestlaviefarm.weebly.com/clv-farm-current-horses.html
Banks Fee Daniel
Your mare is very BFD and I just want to say I have been taught that the good Irish Mare should have the behind of the washer woman and the head of a duchess…not the head of a princess but the distinguished profile of a duchess. I too have a small BFD and she is a fabulous mover and has had a super stallion candidate colt last year. PatO
Completely agree
[QUOTE=columbus;3694629]
The majority of purebred Irish Draughts I have know and worked with are very smart, unlikely to get overly dramatic, very very much want to be worked and trained regularly, their body conformation has a good but wide saddle position and tend to fit med-wide and wide saddles without a lot of custom fitting. I have found them very tough soundness wise…even with an obvious injury(which they are not at all prone to do) they tend to ignore it and keep playing or working. They assess their handler very quickly. If you are in charge…great…but it will come up for discussion regulary. If they are in charge they can be knocking you in the head, in your space, dragging you to grass…this is a trait of most big horses and is not unique to the Draughts.
As riding horses they start very easily. I have yet to have either a youngster or an older horse offer any difficultness. They tend to not like to lunge very forward and will beg you to just get on…“I am BROKE already!” You MUST establish a forward work ethic from the beginning and I have used ground people with lunge whips to help establish this…but I have done it with other quiet breeds too. You must have the work be fun at first as they get bored and wonder why they are going in circles. I have sent all my youngsters out to be started as I want them to get going to work and I tend to putz and they get bored. Learning that work ethic is doubly important with big smart horses. I have not had any trouble with canter…Irish Draughts SHOULD have a very good canter. The Irish people don’t DO dressage but their horses are very talented and have so much natural body strength through their core that moving up is easy for them. The judges like them and score them well. They are competitive with all but the most extravagant warmbloods…and they they are easier to live with.
Living with Irish Draughts is easy. They take care of themselves indoors or out. They DO REQUIRE good electric to keep them off board fences and gates. I would want good working fences…they are not horses you want in and on again off again fencing that keep Arabs and TBs and other sensitive breeds in. Nice hot fences. They are hard on stuff because they have no fear of bashing and crashing noises. I have seen sqwushed buckets, demolished gates, folded round pens. They will play with things other horses won’t touch, and chase each other around the pasture with the “toy”. It is not like having ONE mischievious horse in your herd, they are ALL like that. I have a Welsh Cob filly who is ten times worse but I only have ONE Welsh Cob…thank God.
SO…the bad of Irish Draughts…they can be very wide and require custom saddles. I have two who have heads bigger that the usual “warmblood” sized tack. I sell them with their bridles and halters to save a new owner from searching. If they are silly it is a very big very athletic silly horse. I do know one who is silly and wide but has a lot of talent…his owner likes small quiet horses and she is not having fun. Likey he will settle down at some point but Irish Draughts can still be growing and adolecent till they are 8 or more. I would guess that is the case for the Macha Breezes as he also was very late to settle down. They can be very goofy looking for a very long time. I think one needs to still have high expectations and work them seriously and not wait for them to get it together as they need that work ethic. If you putz they will never rise to their ability.
They tend to be VERY under estimated by trainers and clinicians. They are very able to rise to high expectations. All the trainers who have worked with my horses have gotten very excited by them and they are MYTH busters. Most trainers and clinicians see a big DraftX type and these are NOT that at all. They are athletes and very coordinated, naturally strong cores eith good work ethics and a love of challenge. I have seen them do easy levades, piaffs, passage, changes with no fuss. I have seen an old fat stallion come out of the pasture and be ridden out alone by an unknown level stranger and then jumped. My own mare is very easy and very honest and very talented…and new trainer is working her over fences and is genuinely crestfalled when she is not on the lesson plan that day. She is FUN to ride with out ever feeling you have a horse that is too much for you…or too little for you… regardless of the level.
I do not have experience working with the Irish Draught Sport Horses. I would like to cross on the hotter French warmbloods to lighten and quicken them, I agree you want a TB with bone as they an throw a very big body and you want sufficient limbs to carry and stay sound. Generally they have excellent feet to contribute to the cross. A steady mind…but be prepared to get the TB temperament on a big powerful athletes body and you would have an upperlevel mount but it may be for a pro at least in the begining. The Irish Draught has a great history of crossing well with TBs and producing a very successful market horse but if you are planning for a quiet horse for yourself you may instead get an upper level horse for a pro to sell on to an event rider.
I is good to do research as some mares and stallions produce temperaments for amateurs…the stallion Mountain Pearl is one. Also the quality of the “other” breed is very important. The Irish Draught isn’t going to fix a mess. It will provide substance soundness and temperament is you give them a chance. PatO Merrypath Irish Draughts Minnesota[/QUOTE]
This described my RID gelding out of Mountain Pearl to a tee.
[QUOTE=Sakura;3692403]
Who here owns/breeds/rides Irish Draughts and Irish Sport Horses… How would you describe their disposition, work ethic, type???
What breeds other than TB (I know this to be a good nick) have you seen make successful crosses? They don’t appear to be as massive as other heavy breeds… more WB like in appearance… makes me wonder if they would cross well with some of the lighter/smaller breeds like Arabian, Connemara, QH, Morgan…[/QUOTE]
We have several and have worked with several, and all have unique personalities!
My IDSH gelding (ID/TB) is very easily bored and thus spooks easily. He is sensitive to the aids, very willing to GO and a bit hair brained.
We have an IDSH (ID/TB) we bred and sold now competing in eventing and she is also sensitive, but a bit bolder.
Started an older IDSH (ID/Dutch/TB) mare this year who was an absolute blast, literally just got on and went. Also sensitive to the aids, but a little more on the lazy side. We currently have her son, who is 3/4 ID and he is an onery little stinker (I say that with love, lol), SMART and into everything. Too young to be on him yet though, but I expect he will be fun
Will start our purebred ID this year, she is fairly laid back about life but has a good engine. I expect she’ll be sensitive to the aids, and pick things up quite quickly.
Other purebred ID I rode was definitely on the duller to the aids end of the spectrum. Constantly had to remind her to keep going, she would have preferred to stop and eat grass
None of the above, with the exception of the one purebred, were what I would call beginner mounts. They are sensitive and very smart and will use that smart against you if you let them IDs and IDSHs do have wonderful temperments, but ours err on the side of cheeky. They are also all barefoot and get fat on air (when I say “all,” I mean all of ours).
Since the orriginal post I am now involved with a place that does a lot of crossbreeding on Irish Draught stallions www.blackshireequestrian.com Stock Horses…Appy’s and Paints and QHs, Tbs, various warmbloods though most of those have been TB on the dam side, and then Irish Draught Sport Horses from the crosses. The stock crosses have brought colors into Irish Draught like Appaloosa blankets, silver dappled, possible dun etc which is fun for some customers. We have used two different approved Irish Draught stallions and our experience with the last stallion was that his exceptional movement improved movement in the stock horses…he was very good behind as are his foals, the mares tended to have "prettier heads and usually heads were prettier in the foals. The stock horse breeding gave a more laid back young horse but the mares were usually the same. The heavier bodied stock horses did give bigger bodies relative to the other IDSH youngsters. They are too young to say if they are sounder physically…most of their dams were sound. One has done well locally as a hunter with a junior rider and trainer ad sold well in the hunter market here. The usual home is dressage and or eventing with amateur and junior riders and I have to say we have a very good bunch of well trained junior eventers in the upper Midwest and they do very well with the IDSH they have done most of the training on. In dressage they are also competing well and judges like them and reward correct work and usually ask what they are at the end of their tests. I agree that young ID and IDSH are just too smart to be beginner horses as they figure out the situation too fast…they need people with experience as you don’t want your Irish Draught in charge. They are also…and this is important…the largest warmblood type not the smallest draft horse type. Their name is deceptive…there is a good reason we keep it but it is confusing. These will be substantial, forward athletic fun loving youngsters who need to be ridden forward and kept busy as you develop a good work ethic. This is true of any young sport horse but it is especially important when extraordinary strength or quickness or intelligence is present. Some are now older and well broke and are settling into very nice horses to learn on and even being beginner school horses…smart enough to judge the rider and be the horse they need to be for the situation…I like that. PatO
Since we “got into” the Irish horse a lot of changes have happened in our lives - not the least of which was producing the absolute best foals we ever got, from our own stallion - very satisfying. Now out of a dozen horses, we have only 3 that we did not breed and raise - our stallion Ollie, his full younger sister Bunny (Manu Forti’s Soft Touch) and his Approved sporthorse half-sister Lydia - Dare to be Blue RIDSH.
We are preparing now, however to cut back - have sold the broodmares, and have reduced prices on everybody on the For Sale list, and have priced a few I never wanted to put a tag on, as I never thought we would sell them. It’s just getting to that place in life and having to face reality, sad but true. The geldings are fabulous and the fillies/mares are better - all the breedings were selected with the thought to produce something worth breeding on - thinking generationally. I’m glad we ended up our careers as breeders with the Irish Draught and Irish Sporthorse - they are unique individuals, all of them.
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