Who here owns/breeds/rides Irish Draughts and Irish Sport Horses… How would you describe their disposition, work ethic, type???
What breeds other than TB (I know this to be a good nick) have you seen make successful crosses? They don’t appear to be as massive as other heavy breeds… more WB like in appearance… makes me wonder if they would cross well with some of the lighter/smaller breeds like Arabian, Connemara, QH, Morgan…
I have bred and owned Irish Sporthorses for the past 14 years. All of mine have been out of TB mares but I do know some that have been out of other crosses.
As for temperament well they are all very different. I have 4 full siblings and even they are all quite different in type and temperament.
But generally they are very quiet and easy going horses. My current competition mount is a 17 hand gelding that I bred. I have his Warmblood half brother who I had been taking to my trainer (hes quite difficult) and when my trainer met My ISH she said. “Well thats more like it. An Old Ladies horse!” That of course was mean’t in the nicest possible way.
He is very trainable and rock steady. He has been under saddle for 2 years now and has surpassed his brother (who is 3 years older) already in his training.
Hes recently competed at Dressage Champs and held himself up well with lovely imported warmbloods. In fact in one class he was 4th and the 3 above him were all very fancy Imports. Not bad for a Homebred Old Ladies horse! 
In Ireland they do the Connemara/ID cross to make a smaller ladies horse but I have never seen any in the flesh.
Arabian in the mix would make a good cross but I don’t think I would want to go with QH.
Morgan would be OK though.
I know one that is mixed with Lippizaner. Its OK but not the best of either breed.
Personally I would go with the cleaner mixes as in TB or Arabian.
I breed purebred Draughts. While the breed in general tends to be sensible and biddable, there is this misconception that every Irish horse is like that. The truth is, you will find some variation in disposition and work ethic depending on breeding and handling.
There are exceptions, but the Irish youngsters I’ve backed or restarted have tended toward clever and bold. They do tend to be born leaders - and some will take advantage if you are inconsistent or ineffective in your handling. You can’t be lazy with that sort. A few of them can be very hard headed indeed.
The flip side is that they usually retain their lessons and once they accept you as alpha they are brilliant to handle and will try their hearts out for you. Like most youngsters, if you teach them to go off light aids from the very beginning, you will find them very pleasant to ride. They are very capable mounts for most endeavors and I’ve never met one who didn’t have a larger than life personality…I adore them.
The best crosses are with the NH-type TBs and lighter warmbloods, and I’ve seen some brilliant pony crosses. You have to do a lot of research if you want to breed Irish crossbreds (or purebreds for that matter). While I think there is more consistency with the ID cross than some of the heavy draft crosses due to the fact that the ID has a good dose of TB and was bred to be riding horse in addition to a driving/draft animal, you still sometimes see individuals that end up getting the heavy ID body on the lighter underpinnings of the TB, which is not a good combination for long term soundness. QH crosses are very hit and miss IMHO, probably due to the variation found in that breed as well. I think the foundation/government type Morgan has the potential to be a very good cross (I know of one that is very nice indeed), and the Connemara cross is proven. I have also seen a few nice Arab crosses.
We’ve been Irish converts for about 6 years now. We have 2 pure bred mares and have owned and bred a number of sport horses. My pure bred girls were super easy to start - doing something bad didn’t seem to enter their mind My one girl is so gentle, on her first breeding a fresh out of school vet could use her (with my normal repro vet) to learn on. Young children love to lead my 17+ hand mare. It seems once they understand the rules, they don’t question them again (probably a stretch, but thats what it feels like). All of mine love people and come to meet you at the fence.
I also had a IDSH mare that with 10 months under saddle turned into the perfect mount for a 13 year old eventer girl (working with a trainer). Not many horses that green would I ever consider selling to a young youth. Solid mind and very athletic with a love for jumping. She has had a fantastic year with this girl and they hope to move up next year. I love the IDSH for often combining a great mind for the amatuer with an increable ability to compete in the upper levels.
The thing I do notice is they (ID) are lookers - they will notice everything (mine at least snort at anything “scary”), but very rarely react. I think because of that, crossed with the wrong mare SOME IDSH inherit that trait mixed with the spookiness/flight reaction of other breeds and are more reactive.
Absolutely love them. Most tend to be bold but not silly, and are great ammy friendly horses without losing athleticism. I’ve seen them cross very well with warmbloods, arabians, and TB’s. There are a few QH crosses, but I only saw them as babies, and couldn’t comment on how they ended up ability wise.
My personal favorite is Moorpark Image. He’s on the sportier side of traditional, and seems to throw nice, refined babies. All of them that I’ve seen have had lovely necks, great legs, and well proportioned bodies. He throws them big (tall) too. There’s one at the barn that I drool over on a daily basis. He’s out of an average TB mare, but moves like a little hunter. He’s super sweet, and has the perfect mix of sense and sensitivity. However, most of his foals are just like him: Bay. And that’s it. lol. I think the most exciting markings I’ve seen on his get are a star. 
If I were to avoid one, I’d avoid Macha Breeze. I’ve only met one foal of his that I liked, but that was because he took only after his dam (thank God). Most tend to be toed in, with a short neck and thick throatlatch. Big and unadjustable would describe their gaits best, with a huge walk, ok trot, and huge canter. They’re a bit… dull, and don’t seem to catch onto things very easily or be very coordinated.
The ISH - seven of the top fifteen Olympic event horses in Hong Kong were Irish bred.
I have the cutest four month old ISH by To Be Sure by Mountain Pearl. All the TBS horses have, without exception so far, had that wonderful Irish temperament. With ours we don’t have the slightest doubt that he will be so level tempered. He’s inelligent, learns fast and willing. Just love the little fellow.
ROFL Waterwitch and they can all be very different even if they are full siblings and handled the same way. My 4 full siblings are all really really different.
I got 2 really Bold ones , A suspicious scaredy cat and a very Evil nasty bitch. The Bold ones and the suspicious one are extremely trainable and easy but the Evil one was nasty from 3 days old, was extremely difficult to train and never came to much. Shes the only one of the 3 I sold on. 3 very forward movers but the Suspicious one is lazy but has the best movement of all and is destined to be the superstar of all of them.
No one would beleive they are all full siblings. They all look totally different too.
Just like some human families I guess where all the siblings are totally different in temperament and looks.
Sorry Eireamon - I was responding to the OP, not your post about the siblings Just speaking in very general terms! I need to remember to use the quote function 
[QUOTE=Coppers mom;3693075]
If I were to avoid one, I’d avoid Macha Breeze. I’ve only met one foal of his that I liked, but that was because he took only after his dam (thank God). Most tend to be toed in, with a short neck and thick throatlatch. Big and unadjustable would describe their gaits best, with a huge walk, ok trot, and huge canter. They’re a bit… dull, and don’t seem to catch onto things very easily or be very coordinated.[/QUOTE]
Pardon me but this is a load of malarkey. I have two Macha Breeze foals and they have the absolute best legs and feet I have ever seen. When I took my 2007 filly Serendipity to her first USDF Dressage Sport Horse Breeding class the judge commented on how excellent her feet and legs were. She was shown twice and neither judge suggested that she has a short neck or a thick throatlatch. My 2008 colt by Macha Breeze also has fabulous legs, 100% straight and correct. I also saw his 2007 colt out of a IDSH mare and he was very nice…also with great legs and feet. Apparently the USEA and USDF judges thought his conformation was good too because he placed 1st in FEH yearling colts class and 2nd in USDF DSHB. If Macha Breeze produced less than ideal foals then it was probably that he was bred to less than ideal mares. I don’t believe he was well promoted before the Gillenwaters (Kegan Sport Horses) purchased him and he was likely bred to any mares with owners who would pay the stud fee. I know the Gillenwaters were more selective and refused to breed poor quality mares. With regards to horses toeing in, that can be attributed to poor foot care. Anyway, the fact that there are offspring out there that aren’t ideal isn’t necessarily the stallion’s fault and in this case I believe it is not his fault.
Both my Macha Breeze babies are very good movers and very athletic. My 2007 filly is hands down the most athletic horse on the farm and would be a fabulous eventer. I wish I had some decent photos to show her at the trot but you know how they show off when you don’t have a camera and do nothing when you do have one. All I have is one with her head up in the air playing with her friends but you can see her webpage here. http://www.altamontsporthorses.com/serendipity.html This trot photo is not very flattering to her at all but she is not clunky, short necked or thick in the throatlatch. You can see, however, that she has some power and reach.
Serendipity is smart as a whip. When I decided at the last minute to take her to the USDF show because my other yearling couldn’t go I pulled her out of the pasture completely unprepared and took her off the farm for the first time. She handled it well and settled in at the show grounds within 5 minutes. She was nervous in the big arena for her first class but handled her second class like a pro. She picks up everything fast and is eager to please. She is also very affectionate.
I have a half sibling to Serendipity, his name is Phoenix and he is by Western Sun RID. He is a very nice 2 year old gelding with beautiful movement. He is active and playful but I don’t get the feeling that he is as athletic as his sister. I think he will excel as a dressage horse and maybe be a lower level eventer. I’ve just not see any natural inclination for jumping like his sister has. He also has a good temperment and wants to learn.
My 2008 Macha Breeze colt is also very athletic and sharp. He’s just a baby so he hasn’t been anywhere or had much training but there is nothing “dull” about him either. I have not taken updated photos since he was 3 weeks and you can’t see much there but I assure you his neck is not short and his throatlatch is not thick.
I’ve met Macha Breeze several times and have taken some of his promotional photos. He has the best temperment, quiet but not lazy or dull and he is definitely responsive. This summer he taught a young boy to ride…I think the kid was 11 years old but can’t remember exactly. I can’t say enough good things about this stallion. I hope anyone interested in breeding to an Irish Draught stallion can put Copper’s Mom’s “observations” aside and judge for themselves. It would be a shame to pass over such a nice stallion, especially since he is an outcross stallion (having no King of Diamonds, no Clover Hill, and only one line in the 4 th generation to Pride of Shaunlara.)
Incidentally, Macha Breeze is now at Blackberry Ridge Farm. I’m sure this well known Irish Draught stud farm would not have purchased Macha Breeze if they thought he produced poor quality offspring. http://www.blackberryridgefarm.com/stallions/machabreeze.html
Did they PURCHASE Macha Breeze? I was under the impression they were just standing him for Megan. Megan posts here, so I’m sure she can let us know.
Mac was indeed purchased by Blackberry Ridge.
In response to Coppers mom’s comments, all I can think of to say is everyone is entitled to thier opinions. I’ll point to my website, www.kegansporthorses.com , as a way to show everyone the quality of his foals, and let them judge for themselves.
I have 2 ISH’s by O’Leary’s Irish Diamond out of 2 different TB mares. They are both gorgeous movers. One, out of a Bold Ruler/Princequillo/Native Dancer mare is pushing 17H and is absolutely droolworthy. She will jump anything you put in front of her without even blinking at it. She is a dream hunter type, but is clever and bold enough to do jumpers as well. She’s done very well in dressage and she has some blues in BN eventing from when she was just started. She just had a foal by Consul ISF that is one of the best foals I’ve ever bred, and I’ve bred some Site Champions.
The other is out of a Spectacular Bid mare (Spectacular Bid is the sire of the great jumper Mytens). She’s 5 now and we free jumped her at 4’6" with a 5’ spread yesterday and she didn’t come near the jump. She goes through the chute by herself, gives a little squeal as she rounds the corner and attacks the jumps. She’s quick as a cat and very, very clever. She’s going to be a Grand Prix Jumper.
Both are very rideable by ammie or pro - quiet enough for an ammie, good enough for a pro. Both are extremely pretty, although completely different in type. The second one used to take the long way around in the pasture when you called her for dinner, looking for things to jump on the way in. Neither one has ever refused a jump.
The first mare won 4th place at DAD in the Maiden Mare Class against some of the best bred warmblood mares in the country.
The first one is a more all-around horse and she is not for sale. I hope someone really good buys the other one so I can watch her at Grand Prix - I can’t afford to get her there myself!
The Irish Draught is not a cold-blood draft breed. The name Draught came from being draughted into work in the Army in the war. They are more like a Morgan in that they are an all-around horse that can pull the family to church on Sunday and go hunting in the afternoon. They’re dynamite cross country, very safe and bold. Many of them are gorgeous movers, but the Irish never used to, and still don’t, do much dressage, although they’re perfectly capable. O’Leary’s Irish Diamond qualified for zone finals at PSG and has done I1. He’s also won a modified open and an open jumping championship with only 6 months jump training. Many of his offspring are very successful at dressage, jumpers (Diamond Elle did very well in the IJF) and eventing. I think there are also a lot of good hunters out there.
The ID x TB used to be called the Irish Hunter. I’ve seen some very nice crosses with O’Leary’s Irish Diamond that were from TB, Arab and Dutch mares.
OP
We have crossed our stallion Clover Cliste with TB, Trakenher, Hanoverian and Holsteiner mares. I love my foals out of my mare a Holsteiner/Hanoverian cross mare, they are lovely, athletic, have great temperaments, good movement, loads of jump and are good movers. All of his foals, from what I have heard, have inherited that wonderful typical Irish Draught/Sport Horse temperament and they are smart as can be, easy to train and generally just fun horses to own and be around.
My website is hopelessly out of date but will give you some idea of what the various crosses look like. (Sorry I am doing my Masters so between working full time, running my farm, riding and doing school work that is the last thing that gets updated, it is my Christmas project).
I have the mare all picked out to breed Priceless Clover to via embryo transfer (this will be if the stars all line up correctly as she is for sale and it is not in the budget at the moment). Anyway she is a Holsteiner so as you can tell I think crossing with Warmbloods works quite well for our stallion. I have seen RID and IDSH crossed with Warmbloods and it did not work as well so I really think it depends on the stallion, the bloodlines that are behind him and the mare and what she brings to the mix.
Are you thinking of breeding a mare and if so what type? There are loads of super helpful RID and IDSH stallion owners and breeders out there who would be more than willing to help you.
Sorry guys, but the 10 or so I’ve seen around here (I live in the town where he used to stand) aren’t that great. Maybe it was the mares (I know that it wasn’t in at least two of the cases), but they still left a bad taste in my mouth. Most of them are older, his first and second foal crops, and seem to stall after a while. They just don’t seem quick enough for anything over Prelim. That’s not saying they don’t try, they have great work ethics, just not very bright in my experience. shrug
I do agree with you on their temperaments though. I haven’t seen one that acts silly at a show, even the ones who are doing the in hand classes. And they are possibly the loviest babies ever. However, I want something more when breeding than personality.
Megan- I’m glad to hear he goes so well for you! I had heard a few scary stories from the (questionable) people who used to work with him. It’s amazing how proper handling can influence them.
[QUOTE=gortmore;3693761]
OP
We have crossed our stallion Clover Cliste with TB, Trakenher, Hanoverian and Holsteiner mares. I love my foals out of my mare a Holsteiner/Hanoverian cross mare, they are lovely, athletic, have great temperaments, good movement, loads of jump and are good movers. All of his foals, from what I have heard, have inherited that wonderful typical Irish Draught/Sport Horse temperament and they are smart as can be, easy to train and generally just fun horses to own and be around.
My website is hopelessly out of date but will give you some idea of what the various crosses look like. (Sorry I am doing my Masters so between working full time, running my farm, riding and doing school work that is the last thing that gets updated, it is my Christmas project).
I have the mare all picked out to breed Priceless Clover to via embryo transfer (this will be if the stars all line up correctly as she is for sale and it is not in the budget at the moment). Anyway she is a Holsteiner so as you can tell I think crossing with Warmbloods works quite well for our stallion. I have seen RID and IDSH crossed with Warmbloods and it did not work as well so I really think it depends on the stallion, the bloodlines that are behind him and the mare and what she brings to the mix.[/QUOTE]
I have drooled over your crosses . I wish somebody would drop a WB mare into my fields that I could use. I can’t wait to see your updated website. I am looking at using my TB, but I keep hoping a WB will find its way in.
[QUOTE=Coppers mom;3694054]
Sorry guys, but the 10 or so I’ve seen around here (I live in the town where he used to stand) aren’t that great. Maybe it was the mares (I know that it wasn’t in at least two of the cases), but they still left a bad taste in my mouth. Most of them are older, his first and second foal crops, and seem to stall after a while. They just don’t seem quick enough for anything over Prelim. That’s not saying they don’t try, they have great work ethics, just not very bright in my experience. shrug
I do agree with you on their temperaments though. I haven’t seen one that acts silly at a show, even the ones who are doing the in hand classes. And they are possibly the loviest babies ever. However, I want something more when breeding than personality.
Megan- I’m glad to hear he goes so well for you! I had heard a few scary stories from the (questionable) people who used to work with him. It’s amazing how proper handling can influence them.[/QUOTE]
I’m surprised to hear you say that there are 10 in your area. I think Megan has located most of his registered offspring and they are on her website. A total of 12 are on her site and 2 of them belong to me. Perhaps they were unregistered. I would have to wonder about the owner’s goals and forethought in breeding those mares if the owners did not even bother to register their foals. Furthermore, I wonder how many foals were out of the same dams for better or worse. You can see Macha Breeze’s offspring at www.kegansporthorses.com and even though they are young they are indeed doing something. And since the youngest crop shown on the site was born in 2002 (there is only 1 foaled in 2001) I’m not sure it is fair to be expecting Prelim from 5 year old draft crosses in any case.
Anyone who knows how to properly handle a horse and a stallion would have no problems with Macha Breeze. Honestly, he doesn’t act like a stallion until breeding time anyway and even then he isn’t more stallion like than the average stallion (only bigger). Too bad that those who don’t know what they are doing are so effective in flapping their lips and ruining the reputation of good horses.
From what I’ve heard, he was brought over and bred in a bit of a frenzy as a youngster. A lot of his offspring haven’t been registered because the people around here just didn’t have the interest in getting them registered, they just wanted a good horse. The only one I really liked wasn’t registered. Other than being toed in, he was the most correct of Macha’s offspring that I had seen, so it obviously wasn’t a poorly thought out breeding.
And I didn’t say that I expected 5 year olds to be doing prelim, I said I didn’t think they seemed quick (mentally, and a bit physically) enough for prelim. Btw, the oldest crop I know of is 7 now, and I only know of one that’s doing anything from that crop.
I don’t want this to turn into a big fight. I don’t like the foals I’ve seen, and honestly don’t care for many of the ones on his website either. Sorry, I personally wouldn’t breed to him. Just like I wouldn’t breed to Tenerife again (Nice babies, but man are they monsters). I didn’t say your baby is the ugliest piece of poo ever, so I don’t know why you’re getting offended by it.
Touch of the Blues is nice as well, though his babies do sometimes have a coarser head when they’re full ID. Most of the time though, they’re great little babies with a good temperament. They tend to have nice shoulders and well set on necks.
I like the limited foals I’ve seen from O’Leary’s Irish Diamond (only seen TB crosses though), Prescott Diamond (A little more refined than most full ID babies), and Foxglen Himself (again, only out of TB mares. He’s heavy, so I don’t know if I’d breed him to anything but a lighter mare). Snowford Bellman has some very nice approved sons, but I don’t know any of his babies personally.
I like Bridon Belfrey and Western Sun, but haven’t seen any of their babies.
Thank you everyone for your insightful, detailed and knowledgeable replies
I have two Arabian mares…
that I have been stallion shopping for for quite a while (I am so darn picky!)… I bring the subject up once in a while here… mostly when I stumble upon a WB stallion that I like…
However, I have recently started to think outside of the box… and that is usually when things click for me. Having never seen an Arab/ID X… I was hoping that the ID folks here could give me a feel for how successful a cross like this could be. I stumbled across the ID stallion Bridon Belfrey (currently waiting on a stallion package on him)… he looks to be a very well put together stallion that may offer the bone, and size I’d like to have in a Half Arabian sport horse. Any other suggestions are most apperciated, I have really enjoyed learning about IDs!
Don’t forget that Irish horses may develop late - which is why they have seven foot hedges in Ireland, not necessarily for jumping, but to hide behind them when they reach the ugly stage. 
I know there is a breeder in Maryland, near Frederick (?Playland Farm), who breeds ID/Arabian crosses. If you check the ID association website you can find contact info for that breeder.
We own 4 ID/IDSHs and love them. We have a 5 year old ID by Glenlara who is a great family all arounder. My daughter has done a few jumper shows and 1 event with him, and he loves to trail ride. He is talented and probably would do well as a jumper. Our 6 year old Snowford Bellman (ID)/American TB was a bit hot until he turned 5. He is doing 2nd level dressage, and will pack anyone around a pre-novice event. He would event Novice/Training if someone in my family would jump him more than a few times per year. Our ID/Holsteiner/Connemara evented through Preliminary. Our ID/Irish TB evented through Intermediate and then did 4th level dressage with my daughter. He is also a wonderful trail horse and guest horse, although at age 20 is semiretired.
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