Fill Me in on Irish Draughts...

General and specific

The majority of purebred Irish Draughts I have know and worked with are very smart, unlikely to get overly dramatic, very very much want to be worked and trained regularly, their body conformation has a good but wide saddle position and tend to fit med-wide and wide saddles without a lot of custom fitting. I have found them very tough soundness wise…even with an obvious injury(which they are not at all prone to do) they tend to ignore it and keep playing or working. They assess their handler very quickly. If you are in charge…great…but it will come up for discussion regulary. If they are in charge they can be knocking you in the head, in your space, dragging you to grass…this is a trait of most big horses and is not unique to the Draughts.

As riding horses they start very easily. I have yet to have either a youngster or an older horse offer any difficultness. They tend to not like to lunge very forward and will beg you to just get on…“I am BROKE already!” You MUST establish a forward work ethic from the beginning and I have used ground people with lunge whips to help establish this…but I have done it with other quiet breeds too. You must have the work be fun at first as they get bored and wonder why they are going in circles. I have sent all my youngsters out to be started as I want them to get going to work and I tend to putz and they get bored. Learning that work ethic is doubly important with big smart horses. I have not had any trouble with canter…Irish Draughts SHOULD have a very good canter. The Irish people don’t DO dressage but their horses are very talented and have so much natural body strength through their core that moving up is easy for them. The judges like them and score them well. They are competitive with all but the most extravagant warmbloods…and they they are easier to live with.

Living with Irish Draughts is easy. They take care of themselves indoors or out. They DO REQUIRE good electric to keep them off board fences and gates. I would want good working fences…they are not horses you want in and on again off again fencing that keep Arabs and TBs and other sensitive breeds in. Nice hot fences. They are hard on stuff because they have no fear of bashing and crashing noises. I have seen sqwushed buckets, demolished gates, folded round pens. They will play with things other horses won’t touch, and chase each other around the pasture with the “toy”. It is not like having ONE mischievious horse in your herd, they are ALL like that. I have a Welsh Cob filly who is ten times worse but I only have ONE Welsh Cob…thank God.

SO…the bad of Irish Draughts…they can be very wide and require custom saddles. I have two who have heads bigger that the usual “warmblood” sized tack. I sell them with their bridles and halters to save a new owner from searching. If they are silly it is a very big very athletic silly horse. I do know one who is silly and wide but has a lot of talent…his owner likes small quiet horses and she is not having fun. Likey he will settle down at some point but Irish Draughts can still be growing and adolecent till they are 8 or more. I would guess that is the case for the Macha Breezes as he also was very late to settle down. They can be very goofy looking for a very long time. I think one needs to still have high expectations and work them seriously and not wait for them to get it together as they need that work ethic. If you putz they will never rise to their ability.

They tend to be VERY under estimated by trainers and clinicians. They are very able to rise to high expectations. All the trainers who have worked with my horses have gotten very excited by them and they are MYTH busters. Most trainers and clinicians see a big DraftX type and these are NOT that at all. They are athletes and very coordinated, naturally strong cores eith good work ethics and a love of challenge. I have seen them do easy levades, piaffs, passage, changes with no fuss. I have seen an old fat stallion come out of the pasture and be ridden out alone by an unknown level stranger and then jumped. My own mare is very easy and very honest and very talented…and new trainer is working her over fences and is genuinely crestfalled when she is not on the lesson plan that day. She is FUN to ride with out ever feeling you have a horse that is too much for you…or too little for you… regardless of the level.

I do not have experience working with the Irish Draught Sport Horses. I would like to cross on the hotter French warmbloods to lighten and quicken them, I agree you want a TB with bone as they an throw a very big body and you want sufficient limbs to carry and stay sound. Generally they have excellent feet to contribute to the cross. A steady mind…but be prepared to get the TB temperament on a big powerful athletes body and you would have an upperlevel mount but it may be for a pro at least in the begining. The Irish Draught has a great history of crossing well with TBs and producing a very successful market horse but if you are planning for a quiet horse for yourself you may instead get an upper level horse for a pro to sell on to an event rider.

I is good to do research as some mares and stallions produce temperaments for amateurs…the stallion Mountain Pearl is one. Also the quality of the “other” breed is very important. The Irish Draught isn’t going to fix a mess. It will provide substance soundness and temperament is you give them a chance. PatO Merrypath Irish Draughts Minnesota

http://www.playlandequestriancenter.com

Arab crosses

What are you hoping to get from the cross. I would recommend the stallion Moorpark Image, the stallion Hangon Johnny, and for a lot more height perhaps Huntingfield Proud Tim. Bellman and the Bellman sons are smaller though they are hotter…they are extraordinary movers and very pretty heads. I would look for a stallion who has done well producing nice sized foals to deliver. Some of our stallions have pretty massive foals like Foxglen Himself…wonderful temperaments though. Where are you located as their may be local stallions to look at. I am not as familiar with the Sport Horse stallions. PatO

Hi Pat,

I am a small breeder of Arabian and Half Arabian sport horses to show in Arabian Sport Horse breed shows Class A up through Nationals. My goal is to breed conformationaly correct athletes that will be shown in hand as youngsters and eventually go on to sport horse careers under saddle. I find that the WB/Arab crosses are becoming quite popular as of late, but I am personally attracted to the reputation of IDs (for character, heart, soundness and athleticism), and am curious to see the type of athletes this cross can produce. I’d like to survey stallions in the 15.3hh-16.3hh range, anything bigger would be a little more horse than I am comfortable with.

We are located in VA.

They are hard on stuff because they have no fear of bashing and crashing noises. I have seen sqwushed buckets, demolished gates, folded round pens.

Oh dear. I just about spit soda all over my keyboard. When my filly was almost 3, the person where I had her in field board tried to round pen her. Apparently, the session lasted a bit too long for her taste, so she just walked through the round pen fence, completely demolishing it in the process, and headed quietly back to her field and waited for someone to open the gate for her. At least she was polite about that and didn’t demolish the fence to so her pasturemates could get out as well!! :lol:

I would like to cross on the hotter French warmbloods to lighten and quicken them, I agree you want a TB with bone as they an throw a very big body and you want sufficient limbs to carry and stay sound.
I’ve got one of those.
By Ilian de Taute (SF but 50% TB by blood) out of Penmerryl’s Rose (Happy Endings RID x Aunt Rosa TB).

Bot Sire and Dam Sire are/were GP jumpers.

He is only 3, but so far so good- though he IS hard on feed buckets, and has learned how to open the stall doors himself.

[QUOTE=Coppers mom;3694536]
I don’t want this to turn into a big fight. I don’t like the foals I’ve seen, and honestly don’t care for many of the ones on his website either. Sorry, I personally wouldn’t breed to him. Just like I wouldn’t breed to Tenerife again (Nice babies, but man are they monsters). I didn’t say your baby is the ugliest piece of poo ever, so I don’t know why you’re getting offended by it.[/QUOTE]

I’m not so much offended as I am surprised because the numbers didn’t seem to match up AND, in particular, I have not seen any inclination for toeing in or out but maybe that is because I have all my youngsters feet properly trimmed on a regular basis. I’ve not seen as many as 10 but I have seen 3 up close and personal and not seen the feet/leg conformational faults you have mentioned or the “dull” personalities. It makes me think that the mares he was bred to were not of good quality and since you are specifically recommending not to breed to him I would like to point out that maybe you did not see the best selection and hopefully others would stop to consider that and make their own decision. This stallion does have much to offer the ID breeding community.

Furthermore it seems inappropriate to point out that people have told “scary stories” about this stallion when you admit that they are “questionable”. Why bring this up other than to try to make the stallion look bad? It sounds like a sneaky stab at his character. I would feel this way about any stallion regardless of whether I had foals by him or not. And if I had any concerns about a stallion I would take it upon myself to email the OP directly and tell them about my observations instead of broadcasting it on a public forum especially if I had only heard something from someone else. But since it is a public forum I would imagine that I am welcome to respond with my sentiment as well. And although I am not irate, it does bother me when someone posts such things that they do not know about for certain (like his temperment) or when they have made generalizations based on small or improper sample sizes because I do have two nice foals by this stallion which are for sale. So, yes, it is not a stretch to see why I would be bothered by your posts.

I’ve seen some RID and IDSH foals/yearlings/2 year olds here and there, in person, that I was unimpressed with but I won’t be calling them out and pointing to their sires. There is a lot that goes into producing and raising a foal besides a portion of the stallion’s genetics.

It is unfortunate when a stallion owner breeds their stallion to anything in the beginning of his career just to get foals on the ground or to grab a few bucks. It does everyone involved a disservice.

Back to the OP, I think you could get a very nice cross with a smaller mare. I would, however, choose a stallion that has a decent amount of leg in relation to the rest of his body so the resulting foal doesn’t end up short and squat in case you got more “draft” than Arabian in the foal. I’ve noticed that some of the RIDs are a bit long in the back so I would watch for that as well. I’ve not seen a lot of Arabian/draft crosses but I did see one Arabian/Shire cross that was quite lovely.

I so agree that they can be hard on things.

I would hate to tot up the damage that my 7 yr old over 17 hander has done.

His last offence was running so fast into the trailer that he snapped the pin that holds the front bar and divider as he hit the front bar with so much force. !

I have so many chewed things that he has got hold of and he even chewed the cord of my Equissage when it was left hanging in front of him for a split second.

Hes such a clown and I love him but my word hes destructive !

Altamont- No no no no no! I wasn’t pointing trying to insinuate a poor character! I was pointing out that he WAS a good stallion, and that handling can make a difference. More of a “glad he’s working for you and that those people turned out to be just as ill prepared to handle stallions as I thought they were”. Hence the (questionable). It wasn’t intended in ill will. :slight_smile:

I wish you wouldn’t act like I have no idea what I’m talking about. I live in the town where the importers lived, and they bred a BUNCH of babies. Probably 4 or 5 of their own alone when he first came over. However, the owners didn’t personally breed anything that wasn’t registered. I knew the two who foaled the horses jumping (neither of which, btw, are registered) at the bottom of Megan’s website, and they were both lovely. My farrier also owns two Macha foals, and I know she wouldn’t breed ugly mares. I see these horses on a daily basis, and feel that (not discounting you and your experience) I have a pretty good idea of how they end up when they’re older. They’re all great when they’re younger, that’s why everyone loves babies and puppies and such :wink:

Hmm interesting that people have problems with their IDs being hard on stuff. Mine tend to be super careful about fences, buckets etc.

Yes the will play with toys (I give them boat bumpers and jolly balls) two have loved to grab their halters and lead shanks and pull on their blankets but I attribute that to mom who is a WB.

I have yet to have one of my Irish horses do any damage in terms of fences, the TBs here and the WB are another story, so may just be those horses.

Thanks to those who mention they love our crosses. I do to and can’t wait to get photos of our 2008 foal up on the web site. He is stunning and we could not be more pleased with him.

[QUOTE=Coppers mom;3694536]
<SNIP>
Touch of the Blues is nice as well, though his babies do sometimes have a coarser head when they’re full ID. Most of the time though, they’re great little babies with a good temperament. They tend to have nice shoulders and well set on necks.<SNIP>[/QUOTE]

Well, here’s a TOTB purebred RID stallion son with one of those coarse heads…
http://irishhuntersandjumpers.com/Images/Oliver/Classic2007/head_0735.jpg

It’s admittedly improved since the picture was taken, as he was only a homely three year old at the time. :slight_smile: The judge of the class that photo was taken in actually marked on her scoresheet, “Very masculine, adorable head!”.

I do believe that a LOT of horses (of lots of BREEDS too) are bred to anything with functioning ovaries to get foals on the ground, and it’s to the detriment of the Breed, the individual stallion, and to the horse breeding industry in general! So much of any successful cross is in the mares, yet if anything comes out less than good, it’s ALWAYS the stallion’s fault.

But I digress…
We bred horses for Sport for years out of Thoroughbred and Appendix horses - with a bit of success. Then we met our first Irish Draught, and we have never looked back. It took us a decade to find the ONE horse we wanted for our own program, and his first crop will hit the ground next spring - life is way too short.

The Irish crossbred horses we have produced so far are absolutely wonderful in terms of ability, athleticism, trainability and general good humor.

These horses DO have a sense of humor. People who think them to be “slow” often are expecting reactiveness from a horse who is actually taking time to think things through. Not flinching out of their skin at every input is NOT a fault in my book.

FWIW - bred to what we always have referred to as “running Quarter Horses”, ie, with a good dose of TB in there, the ID produces a truly marvelous horse. The types are pretty close, both physically and mentally, and the crossbreds I’ve seen are pretty doggone nice. If I had more land, I’d be looking at Appendix mares for replacers instead of TB.

AdAblurr- Your boy is adorable!

Though I think we both know that every once in a while you get one of “those” heads with an ID. In my experience, if he’s not bred to a mare with an ok head, the baby will likely come out with a coarser head (I’m using caorse to describe a slight roman nose, wider cheek, etc. NOT an ugly head). Please note the “sometimes”, and that I didn’t say “butt ugly” either.

[QUOTE=Sakura;3694715]
Hi Pat,

I am a small breeder of Arabian and Half Arabian sport horses to show in Arabian Sport Horse breed shows Class A up through Nationals. My goal is to breed conformationaly correct athletes that will be shown in hand as youngsters and eventually go on to sport horse careers under saddle. I find that the WB/Arab crosses are becoming quite popular as of late, but I am personally attracted to the reputation of IDs (for character, heart, soundness and athleticism), and am curious to see the type of athletes this cross can produce. I’d like to survey stallions in the 15.3hh-16.3hh range, anything bigger would be a little more horse than I am comfortable with.

We are located in VA.[/QUOTE]

PLayland farm’s older crosses are by Its the Luck of the Irish located at Tully Cross Farm in Westminster MD. He throws a very nice temperment. More recently PLF added a stallion to their farm (I believe from the Clover Hill line). They have a number for sale on Dreamhorse. I have not seen any arab x ID offspring from them over 16h and 99% took after the dam and were 15.1-15.3. But from those two stallions you can at least get an idea of what they throw when crossed with an Arab. I don’t know where in VA you are, but if you can get to MD Tully Cross and Playland farm are within 30 minutes of each other.

I have a purebred Belfrey baby due this year, so I have to agree he is absolutley stunning. Thus far, he tends to add 1-2" over the dams height to the foal. You might also look up Braveheart in TX. His dam is located in VA and his sire is O’learys Irish Diamond. The IDSH mare I referred to earlier that I sold to a 13 yr old is by OLID. That line is not typically known for adding much size, but very athletic and great temperments.

I want a whole field of em, seriously! I WILL have a purebred mare within the next 5 years!!

I have 2 OLID line sporthorses. The oldest is 3 and I did my first show with him a couple weeks ago and we won (dressage) with lovely comments from the judge about him. He is heavier, 16 hand and I think will finish around 16.2. He is going to be my eventer/fox hunter and my forever horse. I could NEVER sell this horse, he is honest to gosh the best horse I’ve ever been around in my life (can you tell I’m smitten). Smart, sensitive, forgiving, gentle, and just a ham.

The other I have is a weanling and she is 150% an upper level jumper prospect. She is amazing, tall, leggy, more modern, quick, and goes out of her way to jump anything and everything and in perfect form. She is hotter then my gelding, but not stupid by any stretch.

I think both of mine have more talent as horses then I do as a rider to bring along. The gelding is stuck with me, period. The filly I want to take as far as I can and then hand the reins over. She just has too much potential to be wasted on me. I’m in MD and have an open door policy, if you wanted to meet some OLIDs.

LOL Not all of them Gortmore. My fillies have always been good on things but my big lump of a gelding is soo destructive. He has no idea of his own strength! He literally gallops into the trailor and just hits the front bar so hard that he snapped the pin right off. ! Gotta love the exuberance!
He plays hard in the paddock too and kills all his toys and buckets. Hes just a big clown.

wow.

how INTERESTING that Macha Breeze ended up with Tony. I didn’t know. I am a lurker, a rare poster, but struck by how a public fact can touch you so…incredibly… personally. Well, I’ll share my experience with my dear 2003 Macha Breeze mare in a pm. And in fairness, statistically speaking, n=1. One that was significant to me.

We bought a lovely black/chrome, Touch of the Blues ISH colt to add to our sport horse breeding program on St. Patrick’s Day 2007. Actually we committed to him (if it was a “him”) well before he was born. Our colt, Seattle Blues, is out of a Seattle Slew granddaughter and is one of the nicest horses I’ve been around. As an ISH I don’t think he comes under the “plain head” catagory…ours has the most gorgeous, dainty, stud head you can imagine. It is a terrific match to his gorgeous body!! No one has told him he was 1/2 draught - he is as fast and athletic as the TB’s he turns out with. I’ve started his ground work and he is extremely willing and clever. All of these traits are what we bought him to be!!! Bred to our painted TB mares we expect to have some outstanding ISH’s with bling. But most importantly we expect them to have wonderful, “user friendly” attitudes. Isn’t that why people buy “Irish”??

And Coppers Mom…you’re not the only one with horror stories about MB!! My husband (with over 50 years as a horseman) used to help the vet who collected him. THAT was easily a 5 MAN ordeal. I’m happy that Megan’s handling changed him, but those of us who knew him “back then” were worried about the new owner when he changed hands!

My friend has two full siblings by Silver Galtee (IDSH), and they are both STUNNING movers with excellent temperaments and conformation. She’s considering keeping this year’s colt intact as a stallion prospect.

http://www.greyhavensporthorses.com/Stallion.html

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;3695747]

And Coppers Mom…you’re not the only one with horror stories about MB!! My husband (with over 50 years as a horseman) used to help the vet who collected him. THAT was easily a 5 MAN ordeal. I’m happy that Megan’s handling changed him, but those of us who knew him “back then” were worried about the new owner when he changed hands![/QUOTE]

Yeah, the former owners had… interesting people working with those stallions. It’s sad how poor handling can really ruin a stallion. I think the biggest problem with the studs up there was inconsistency. They either had someone who was terrified or someone who wanted to “show them who’s boss”. Stallions don’t need spoiling, and they don’t need beatings. Just good, consistant handling.

This has been a great learning thread!

I have my first Irish sporthorse, a 1/4 Irish grandaughter of OLID. She is coming three. She has many of these traits, I’ve had her six months, I’m still trying to decide what traits are her and what traits are a result of her upbringing.
She is very people oriented (but she was more like a pet when I got her), and has learned to respect my space and me. But she IS very looky, sometimes spooky, more so than all my TB’s. She is a TB cross herself. So I’m just waiting to see how she ends up being. I’m not into spooky at all, but I’m not yet convinced it’s her personality, I’m hoping it’s just her lack of exposure to things. But as one poster said, she does notice absolutely EVERYTHING.
But she is the sweetest thing. :yes: