Finally may have gotten to the bottom of my horse's not quite right-ness :(

Hi soooo I’m really bummed out and upset right now but just looking for advice and comiseration. I have only had my horse for about ten months and I’ve basically been trying to figure out what’s wrong with her for a majority of that time.

She’s been just not quite right for awhile, probably starting in January/February. Her main symptom has been resistance to my leg under saddle and a general unwillingness to move forward. At one point it escalated to her fully kicking out / bucking in direct response to my leg aid.

I have clean x rays of her back and scoped her in March for ulcers, all good there. Saddle fitter, chiro, teeth done, etc. The chiro has been pretty helpful in at least just telling me where the soreness is, but each time she comes it’s just apparent that there’s something causing her to be sore and she fixes it for a short term but there’s still an underlying problem.

In May she saw the vet (Vet #1) for a full lameness exam, and that vet also took a look at my PPE notes and x rays of her front feet. She suggested that I put the mare in rubber pads up front after looking at her feet x rays, and then we ended up x-raying her hocks and then injecting them.

When Vet #1 x rayed the hocks, she said they definitely had significant arthritic changes, and said the right side is definitely in the process of fusing, but it’s not so far gone that we can’t inject it. And when she came back to inject them she said the same thing, like some liquid came back out but not a ton and she was able to still inject it.

Fast forward a month or two, the hock injections don’t feel to have made a huge difference, although switching her to a softer bit and completely not riding anymore in my hard, old jump saddle that needs reflocking have helped some. She’s not quite as resistant now but instead she is starting to be visually, intermittently lame, but kind of vague and changing location. Of course I suspected that it was her feet, and I’ve posted other threads on here about her feet where COTH hoof experts confirmed that my farrier was not helping her out at all.

So after a very frustrating search I think I finally found a new farrier but he has yet to actually work on her so that’s TBD. In the meantime I had a different vet out today (Vet #2) to get a new set of hoof x rays and give good advice and instructions to my brand new farrier.

After watching her lunge in a circle at the trot, Vet #2 said the lameness was a grade 1/low grade 2, and located mainly in the LF, sometimes LH but up high. She is and has been for awhile, SUPER sore in her entire back and SI area. No heat or pulse in any of the feet, negative on all hoof testers. I tried to get him to do nerve blocks but he basically didn’t think they would help because he didn’t think he’d be able to definitively tell where to block.

He x-rayed her front feet but said that he thinks they actually look fine… no need for pads (which I have taken her out of anyway) and he pointed out a couple areas where the pads were probably making things worse. He said that the trim job is slightly uneven medial to lateral, but that her shoulders look straight and that’s the most important thing.

So he concluded that he doesn’t think her feet are the source of the lameness at all, and then he took a look (on his phone, via email) at the hock x rays taken by Vet #1 in May and said they look “really rough”.

The images weren’t labeled left or right so that made it slightly more difficult for him to say for sure, but basically he suspects that the process of hock fusion on the right side is making her paddle with the right hind and resulting in a front left lameness / soreness that’s more pronounced when she’s circling to the right, because she is like bulging so far in with the right hindquarters to avoid moving that hock joint. Which definitely resonates to what I feel under saddle, and in videos the lameness almost looks better/goes away when I take up the contact and can get her into more of a correct frame.

So basically long story short, he said I’ll probably need to consider chemical or surgical hock fusion :frowning: and he thinks that’s 100% the source of the lameness I’m seeing, no need for any more diagnostics.

I am like having trouble remembering everything else he said about the hocks right now but I’m happy to post the x rays here tbh if anyone wants to look.

Basically I’m just concerned because from what i’ve read, hock fusion is a somewhat high risk procedure and should be more of a last resort, and I’m just worried that I haven’t done all the diagnostics and could be missing something else?!!?

She has never really flexed lame in her hocks although the vet today didn’t do flexions, but I remember Vet #1 making a comment like “I’m actually surprised she doesn’t flex more lame in her hocks based on these radiographs.”

Could it be possible that there’s something else soft tissue going on? Could her feet still be a problem even though this vet seems to think her feet are just fine? Do I get a third vet’s opinion because now I feel like I’m hearing conflicting reports from these two??

I’m just like so bummed because I wanted to just have fun with this horse and now my hopes of ever getting her comfortable for the job I wanted her for are getting slimmer and slimmer. I honestly just kind of feel stupid for buying her and thinking I could do this :frowning: any help or advice is much appreciated!

Has she ever been tested for EPM and Lyme?
Have spine radiographs ever been done?
Sometimes hard-to diagnose conditions such as you describe can come from those sources.

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I’d check hind suspensories too…

When you injected, did you do any HA or just steroid? After the first steroid only injections didn’t help much, I always include HA now and get much better results.

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So today’s vet didn’t flex or block anything and thinks you should fuse the hocks based on cell-phone-sized x-rays? Hmm.

If it were my horse, I would get a full workup at a university or sports medicine clinic. It sounds expensive but IME trying a series of local vets and not getting any answers adds up to more in the end. It sounds like there are still a lot of possibilities that haven’t been ruled out, like soft tissue injury, systemic issues like EPM or Lyme, or even a reproductive issue that’s causing her discomfort. And yes, it’s entirely possible that her feet are contributing despite two vets telling you they are fine. Many vets are not all that knowledgeable about feet, or don’t want to badmouth any farriers. I could show you some scary photos that an eminent sporthorse vet called “really a very expert shoeing job.”

If you’re willing to post videos and/or updated hoof photos here there are some posters with really excellent eyes who might be able to point you in one direction or another.

I’m sorry you’re going through this but I don’t think you should give up hope yet, and definitely don’t feel stupid! (At least no more stupid than any of us who buy horses. :rofl:) Your mare is lucky to have you trying to get to the bottom of this for her.

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This is very interesting. Sounds a lot like my mare. She is very unwilling under saddle and the pain does seem to be in her back/SI but I don’t think it’s originating there. I ALSO x-rayed her back, injected her hocks, injected her stifles, got a new saddle, teeth done, etc… no avail. She also looks “fine” if she submits into the contact for a second. I paid $1 for her (knowing she came with these issues) so it’s hard to justify the ongoing diagnostics.

I would definitely run a blood panel for Lyme and EPM. Lyme can show up as shifting lameness, it can come and go, and mimic other things. I’d love to see videos of your horse.

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Was she having any issues when you purchased her? I just have to wonder how it went so wrong so fast after you bought her?

Any possibility she was drugged to cover all this up when you tried/ bought her?? Just seems so many issues to happen all at once.

I am sorry and hope you can gert answers/ results with a new vet & farrier on board.

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I don’t think she was drugged, she does have a little bit of an interesting past and came at a bargain lol. She was owned by a very beginner family who definitely got swindled into buying her for their EXTREMELY beginner child, who fell off like on day one (not sure exactly what happened there). The family sent her off to an h/j trainer to be sold and she was in partial training there for like a few months before I got her, so being ridden like 3 times a week I think. I don’t know a lot about her life before that but basically she did a lot of jumping and not a lot of flatwork.

She was super duper forward and kinda almost running away with me when I tried her, but other than that she was super broke, easy, and fun, she jumped ditches and banks and stuff, and just needed a lot of strength building and good correct flatwork. And they had her in like a double twisted wire bit with a saddle that was definitely too narrow, etc. After getting her a well fitted saddle and stuff she has never once offered to run away with me or anything like that, she’s a LOT more relaxed now.

I wouldn’t say she passed the PPE with ~flying colors~ but basically she flexed 1/5 lame on her right hind, and showed 1/5 bilateral lameness on the front feet. I got x rays of the right hind and front feet and all were clean, and they had also previously x rayed her back and shared those images with me and all clean there too. I did get a good bit off the purchase price after the PPE, they really just needed her gone because the family had already bought a new pony for their kid and didn’t want to pay board on her anymore.

I have ten million videos of her being lunged and ridden so I’ll get some of those together tonight and post!

I think I’m at the very least going to try to get another opinion on the hock x rays because I just find it weird that one vet thinks it’s fine to go the injection route and one vet thinks we’re way past that point already!

And she has not been tested for EPM or Lyme, I do have spine radiographs that look good.

Just checked the invoice for the hock injections and it says CS/HA… so I guess that means it did include both.

Sorry that you’re going through all this. It’s really tough when you can’t figure out how to best help them.

I don’t have much to add except that my vet doesn’t put much stock in flexions anymore. I did a PPE on one that flexed sound, but then ended finding pretty significant hock arthritis.

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FWIW, I’ve spent a few years now trying to figure out where my horse isn’t quite right, and it’s been like trying to hit a moving target. What I have found is that traditional vet lameness exams and diagnoses just about NEVER include any thought to muscle tightness or pain. At the end of the day, I found that what has made a huge difference is in treating muscle pain with two KER products (one is an amino acid complex and the other an oil with anti-inflammatory effect), regular massage (never chiro), and a specific work out routine that includes 15 minutes of specific stretching under tack and a varied routine day to day. It’s made all the difference and my horse has gone from being completely bunched up, anxious and grinding regularly, to a beautiful mover again with relaxation through his whole body. As my vet says, muscle pain is poorly understood and it might be worth looking in that direction to see if you can improve outcomes.

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What KER products do you use? I’m with your vet; I think muscle pain is not well understood and personally, I think it’s often overlooked.

Right. Exactly. I wouldn’t pursue anything without at minimum a block confirming.

OP, it sounds like you have jumped down the rabbit hole and have spent a small fortune on your horse – lucky mare!

Do you have the x-rays of the feet, and hocks? And a video?

A couple things about backsoreness and SI soreness – my first suspicion when a horse presents this way is the feet, not the back. And if the feet look okay, then saddle fit – then the actual back. With the back and SI, where the pain is locally doesn’t often correspond to the area that is actually injured or strained.

From what you’ve told us, I’d think hind suspensories and hind feet need some rehab, and then consider the hocks. Hocks are rarely primary barring an acute injury - so if I have a horse presenting as hocksore I usually look at their feet, their turnout, and their saddle fit first.

In the mean time some small changes to management really help backsore/hocky horses - as much turnout (24/7 is ideal) and feed fed on the ground.

I’m with Libby, it’d be time to bring her to a clinic for me.

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I use the MFM pellets and a product that is still in testing … let me double check the ingredients though. Also, FWIW, I have been using the Eagle ProSix on my vet’s suggestion, and it has changed how he is using himself. That, combined with a specific program recommended by Jec Ballou, has re-built his body and I can now actually feel the left side of the horse under me. Whoohoo! Miracles!!! :slight_smile:

Do the tests for Lyme and EPM. Do that first. They’re not that expensive and it’s important to rule out those as possibilities.

Then, if the horse doesn’t have either, you should consider trailering to a vet clinic and having them do a full work-up.

Good luck.

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I assume, reading that, metabolic testing has been done, ruling out Cushings/PSSM etc.?

Some times those are not caught on regular CBCs.

We had a while back a horse sore, just not quite right, ended up testing very short on vit. E.
Once supplemented, horse was back to his own happy, forward self.

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Thank you very much! I’ll be really interested in the ingredients and will take a look at those pellets. I have two books authored by Jec Ballou😀. @Bluey, thank you. We’ve done both metabolic testing and Vitamin E.

Having had a horse with a primary, chronic SI problem who did not want to go forward, I would consider that as a possibility. In my case, the extent of the issue was not able to be discovered until necropsy, but we had ruled out a LS disc injury and things like that. He required regular SI injections, and he would often get into the muscle sore almost neuro windup state. He also had other issues, but his axial skeleton was a huge issue. He also had neck issues, though those seemed to be well-managed.

I think a full workup at a clinic is where you need to go next. It will save you in the long run versus this incomplete piecemeal approach you are taking with the local vets. I would think that if the hocks were really the issue then she would be sensitive to flexions.

Things like SI can be a bit of a diagnosis by exclusion, although you can ultrasound (dorsally and rectally) some of the area. Other things to consider would be something systemic (EPM, Lyme, Vit E deficiency, etc.), neck, suspensory. But given that you say you can ride her more sound, I would lean towards SI or something else in the pelvis area, or even lower back.

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Just to throw in something else: does your bridle fit? I’ve heard of horses who were NQR because they were uncomfortable with their bridle applying pressure in some uncomfortable places. Something as simple as a buckle rubbing or the browband too tight.

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Honestly, if the front feet are unbalanced you can almost bet the hind feet will be too, and that they are high on the inside. Imbalances in the hind feet can be trickier to see than in the fronts, and imbalanced hind feet almost always cause soreness in the hocks, stifle, sacro and back.

Post some pics of the hind heels, taken looking from the heel towards the toe, and lining up the heel with the toe (like you’re looking over a glass of water and lining up the front and back of the glass).

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Like this:

image

I actually sent videos to Jec and asked her to put together a plan … that has been so very well worth it.

Also, I did want to mention that in the process of trying to figure this all out, I did a full nuclear scan, MRIs of front feet, xrays of all feet, hocks, fetlocks, stifles, ultrasound of SI and anything else we could think of. Everything has looked good all along and while the data is important, it was a ton of $$$ that only left everyone at a loss for why he didn’t feel right. It was only when I turned my attention to his structural muscles and changed our work outs that I’ve seen progress.

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