Fire suppression system charity fund?

[Anonymare]

Devastated to hear about another barn fire this morning (https://www.gofundme.com/f/long-branch-barn-fire-recovery-support-for-danielle-kate). I know it’s difficult (impossible?) to install fire suppression systems on older barns, and of course expensive. But, does anyone with more knowledge than me know if there are any real barriers (permitting, etc) other than money?

I know barn owners and professional trainers are often operating on a shoe string - does anyone think there would be interest in a charity fund for barns to install fire suppression systems? I’m imagining a process where a barn is reviewed and the number of horses, age and design of the barn, and cost is taken into account to determine need. Any other ideas? Of course the “stuff” can be replaced, but seeing people lose horses is heartbreaking.

If this already exists, I’d love to have info on it.

[endlessclimb]

Gosh, and that was a block built barn, too.

[clanter]

@Anonymare

than me know if there are any real barriers (permitting, etc) other than money?

water supply, the smallest water main supply for a fire sprinkler system is a 6 inch main

[BeeHoney]

Barn fires are absolutely heartbreaking.

If you look at the patterns of barn fires, they typically occur during the coldest weeks of winter and the hottest parts of summer. This is because most barn fires are related to electrical appliances (fans and heaters) and electrical issues.

I don’t know what the cause was at this farm, but the main cause of summer barn fires is indoor type box fans. If you care about not having a barn fire, do not use cheap box fans designed for indoor use. Only use only fans with enclosed motors designed for outdoor conditions. Do not leave fans on when the barn is unattended. No fans on at night unless you have a night watchman. Best practice if possible would be to turn horses out at night.

During winter, heating devices are the main causes of fires. Do not use space heaters unattended in barns. Avoid using unattended bucket heaters. Do not use, at all, the bucket heaters that can bring water to a boil. The risk if you get distracted and walk away is too great.

For year round fire prevention, make sure all wiring is enclosed in conduit. Periodically inspect wiring and electrical boxes/outlets. Electrical outlet boxes do need to be periodically replaced. Be quick to replace any wiring with evidence of fraying or having been chewed on. Frequently inspect any electrical appliances that are used in the barn and be quick to dispose of older or worn appliances. If possible, store items like hay and gasoline in separate buildings. Keep walls and ceilings free from cobwebs. Have multiple large fire extinguishers located throughout the barn and replace as necessary.

I know the idea of a fire suppression system sounds nice, but they are extremely expensive and barns are large, sometimes multistory buildings. After a friend’s devastating barn fire, I priced it out and it was prohibitive. However, the data is clear on what causes barn fires and other than buying enclosed motor fans, prevention is relatively cheap.

[LCDR]

This is why my horses are out 24/7/365 now that I have my own place. I spent 30 plus years as a boarder worrying about my horses in a few barns with scary and old electrical wiring. One barn eventually did burn. The stalls you see in flames are where my horses lived.

The last thing I do every evening when I leave my own new barn is to flip off its main circuit breaker. No loose electrons allowed while I am sleeping.

[BrownDerby]

This article includes a discussion of fire suppression sprinkler systems. It seems the main issue is having an adequate water supply.

Fire Prevention in Barns

[Christa_P]

Another problem in many areas would be frozen pipes as I think the suppression systems are designed to have water in them all the time. Not a problem in a heated building, but most barns aren’t heated so the lines would freeze.

[clanter]

@Christa_P

I think the suppression systems are designed to have water in them all the time.

Dry fire suppression systems are used in area subject to freezing these are charged with compressed air or nitrogen when there is a release of the of the compressed gases that kicks in the water flow

[Amberley]

@BeeHoney

For year round fire prevention, make sure all wiring is enclosed in conduit. Periodically inspect wiring and electrical boxes/outlets.

This is a big issue - people retrofit barns so that it’s very hard to inspect the wiring and then… they don’t do it. I know a lot of people who hit the breakers at night and only keep power on in the tackroom etc.

As far as fire suppression systems, you’d need a big system to put out burning hay or shavings. I don’t know how practical that is.

[trubandloki]

@Christa_P

Another problem in many areas would be frozen pipes as I think the suppression systems are designed to have water in them all the time.

They do make dry pipe systems that work in freezing areas. They still require quite a bit of heated space at the service entrance.

Fire sprinkler systems do not work like they show on TV. The only place that water flows is where the head is activated. One head being activated does not start the whole building with water flowing everywhere (like they show on TV).

Like was mentioned above, a Fire Sprinkler system has a water need that is not likely to be available in most rural areas.
Lack of available water also causes the fire department issues in rural fires.

@clanter

water supply, the smallest water main supply for a fire sprinkler system is a 6 inch main

4inch.

[Djones]

@Anonymare

I know barn owners and professional trainers are often operating on a shoe string - does anyone think there would be interest in a charity fund for barns to install fire suppression systems?

The better use of money and effort is:

• no cheap fans. closed motor fans only. Build a barn with excellent ventilation and only use high-quality ag-rated real-deal fans.
• no cheap power strips. Tie in the power you need to run the facility. Call the electrician and get the power supply built in to support the need
• Only outdoor-rated, heavy gauge extension cords can ever be used. and never left plugged in, in use, and untended.
• Any apartments, lounges, etc must be fully sheetrocked and separated by fire-rated walls, sprinkled, etc.
• Outdoor-rated plugs only, with outdoor covers that are kept closed when not in use.
• You don’t need to replace plugs unless they are damaged - you need to install outdoor- rated equipment, keep the plugs in good shape. Keep plug covers on them when not in use.

That podcast tells the story - something in an apartment failed, ignited propane vapor, and that nasty old spray-on insulation just exploded into fire and deadly black smoke.

[clanter]

if the building is Steel frame or even just steel post framed set in concrete, add grounding rod to the building

[FitToBeTied]

Electrical is usually the cause because what else in a barn could spark a fire? Besides good sound electrical installation there are other things that can be done to reduce fire risk.

1. Don’t store hay in the barn. Hay dust is highly flammable. Also, hay dust can cause breathing issues for your horses.
2. Clean, clean, clean. Dust and cobwebs are highly flammable. I power wash the inside of the barn multiple times a year.

[SusanO]

I agree! So much better to prevent a problem than to try and put out a fire (literally) when it happens.

[red_mares]

@Amberley

As far as fire suppression systems, you’d need a big system to put out burning hay or shavings. I don’t know how practical that is.

There are different ways of attacking this. An alternative would be preventing the spread of fire from where ever the hay or shavings are to where the horse are. A water mist system is probably the more practical for a barn than a traditional sprinkling/deluge system.

If I were building a barn, I’d have watermist in the horse area (e.g, the aisle between stalls) to increase the time available to get horses out.) If the system will work on ships, which are a mess even when clean, it would work in a barn. I’ve never priced it out though.

[endlessclimb]

@trubandloki

Fire sprinkler systems do not work like they show on TV.

That depends on the system design. Our fire suppression systems at work are a mix, but one is a deluge that drowns the whole building with high flow heads all over if triggered.

[FitToBeTied]

Not in the vein of fire suppression/prevention but make sure you can get the horses out from the outside. All of our stalls on every barn we have had, have/had dutch doors that open to the outside.

[LCDR]

@BeeHoney

For year round fire prevention, make sure all wiring is enclosed in conduit.

A note about conduit, learned by failing an electrical inspection.

Some jackleg electricians cut corners and simply run Romex cable ( the stuff with the wires inside a sheath like you see inside walls of homes) through conduit to save time and money. This is not “code.” If there is not enough empty space (about 50 percent inside should be empty) left inside the conduit there can be wire overheating and fire risk. Individual wires by themselves (called THNN wires) should be run through conduit, not Romex).

It might look fine on the surface with all those pretty runs of barn electrical conduit, but it is what the electrician (with apologies to real trained and licensed ethical electricians) put inside the conduit that is critical.

[clanter]

excellent older thread on electrical wire of a barn

Barn Wiring and Lighting Advice

in the over-engineering style of jacksdad we are dropping 200 amp service to the barn (to it’s own panel) and getting conflicting advice on the type of wiring we should use. i’m thinking armored cable, but i’ve read and had some folks tell me that i shouldn’t. what’s your barn wired with and how’s it working for you? also, do you have any recommendations on lighting types/schemes? any big time stupid moves out there that i can learn from before i do them? thanks in advance!

[LCDR]

Thanks for posting the link. The NEC intentions and meanings are certainly debated among electricians and electrical inspectors much like Christians debate their Bible and attorneys and politicians debate the U.S. Constitution. In my location, there is not even consensus about what a horse barn structure actually is in terms of the NEC.

Here a horse barn on a residential lot like mine is considered an accessory building, with one set of applicable electrical codes, and a horse barn on a non-residential lot such as a big commercial boarding barn is considered as an agricultural building, with different applicable codes.

And to further complicate things, inspectors allow one thing in dry areas of barns, like feed rooms and tack rooms, and have other requirements for areas considered damp. My barn was considered to be split in half at the center aisle. One side has feed room, tack room, office, and workshop, and is “dry.” The aisle and stalls on the far side are considered “damp.”