First Foaling experience... questions...

[zoehesed]

A mare that is boarded at my farm is expected to give birth at any time. Due tomorrow (the 6th)

Yesterday the vet was out and noted how relaxed her hind end was and said she thought baby was coming soon. This is a maiden mare so no one knows what she is going to do but she also hasn’t had her milk come in yet.

This mare has been getting good orchard grass hay for the past few months but they vet is scared she has fescue poisoning from the tiny stuble that is in the dry lot mostly mud area she has been in.

Mare’s owner was basically told to bring the mare in to the clinic because they did not give colostrum outside of the clinic because her milk wasn’t in yet. They also are not giving her the medication for the milk to come in now at the clinic until after the foal comes.

Today the mare seems to be forming a udder now (seems more there than it was yesterday) but still no milk etc.

So two questions… is it normal for a vet to not let you have colostrum unless you are at the clinic to foal? and is it possible the mare can still have fescue poisoning that is this alarming?

[JJ_sLuckyTrain]

The concept of a due date is a bit hard to apply to horses. My maiden mare foaled at day 361 this year. She had NO udder a couple of weeks earlier so I too was worried about fescue. I had an ultrasound done to make sure her placental thickness was normal (it was.) Then, I waited. She started bagging up close to foaling, waxed the night before and milk pH dropped. Dripped milk the day she foaled.

Basically, each mare follows her own rhythm and it may not be a concern that this mare does not have milk yet.

I would recommend having Seramune on hand (can order from Valley Vet, etc.) This is an oral serum that can be given within the first twelve hours to supplement mom’s colostrum.

[JB]

@zoehesed;8650833

A mare that is boarded at my farm is expected to give birth at any time. Due tomorrow (the 6th)

That just means Day 340-342 depending on which date the vet uses. That’s just average. More mares go longer than that than under it. So, keep that in mind. She could still be a month or more away from delivering.

Yesterday the vet was out and noted how relaxed her hind end was and said she thought baby was coming soon. This is a maiden mare so no one knows what she is going to do but she also hasn’t had her milk come in yet.

“Relaxed” can be pretty subjective. The tail laxicity test is a better test than just the muscles. If the mare can still clamp her tail down and resist it being pulled, that’s more telling than butt muscles. However, loose rump muscles shouldn’t just be ignored.

Not all mares produce milk or back up well before foaling. Some only get really big bags and milk just hours before foaling, some not until they actually do foal. So while a huge udder and streaming milk are pretty good signs foaling is very near, lack of an udder is not necessarily a sign foaling is a long way off

This mare has been getting good orchard grass hay for the past few months but they vet is scared she has fescue poisoning from the tiny stuble that is in the dry lot mostly mud area she has been in.

Mare’s owner was basically told to bring the mare in to the clinic because they did not give colostrum outside of the clinic because her milk wasn’t in yet. They also are not giving her the medication for the milk to come in now at the clinic until after the foal comes.

Today the mare seems to be forming a udder now (seems more there than it was yesterday) but still no milk etc.

So two questions… is it normal for a vet to not let you have colostrum unless you are at the clinic to foal? and is it possible the mare can still have fescue poisoning that is this alarming?

IMHO the vet is being irresponsible by not getting the mare on Equidone. There is far more to the fescue issue than just milk, issues which Equidone can all but eliminate - thickened placenta, prolonged gestation, and more.

Udders start growing long before there is any real milk being produced, and the typical mare has an udder growing for weeks before the is any milk to be expressed.

The vet sounds very inexperienced with reproduction.

[crosscreeksh]

[QUOTE=JB;8650977]
That just means Day 340-342 depending on which date the vet uses. That’s just average. More mares go longer than that than under it. So, keep that in mind. She could still be a month or more away from delivering.

“Relaxed” can be pretty subjective. The tail laxicity test is a better test than just the muscles. If the mare can still clamp her tail down and resist it being pulled, that’s more telling than butt muscles. However, loose rump muscles shouldn’t just be ignored.

Not all mares produce milk or back up well before foaling. Some only get really big bags and milk just hours before foaling, some not until they actually do foal. So while a huge udder and streaming milk are pretty good signs foaling is very near, lack of an udder is not necessarily a sign foaling is a long way off

IMHO the vet is being irresponsible by not getting the mare on Equidone. There is far more to the fescue issue than just milk, issues which Equidone can all but eliminate - thickened placenta, prolonged gestation, and more.

Udders start growing long before there is any real milk being produced, and the typical mare has an udder growing for weeks before the is any milk to be expressed.

The vet sounds very inexperienced with reproduction.[/QUOTE]

Agree!! Sounds like a new vet is in order!! Our vet says the Ky breeding farms are using Equidone routinely!!! THAT should be the first step!!! Good luck!!

[khall]

I would take her in and have her US ed to see how the placenta looks vet can also take a look at the cervix see if there is any softening. Maiden mares can be tricky about what they show before foaling.

[JJ_sLuckyTrain]

[QUOTE=JB;8650977]
IMHO the vet is being irresponsible by not getting the mare on Equidone. There is far more to the fescue issue than just milk, issues which Equidone can all but eliminate - thickened placenta, prolonged gestation, and more.

Udders start growing long before there is any real milk being produced, and the typical mare has an udder growing for weeks before the is any milk to be expressed.

The vet sounds very inexperienced with reproduction.[/QUOTE]

I would have to disagree. Use of domperidone is not always indicated in a situation lke this.

[Laurierace]

I wouldn’t jump to fescue poisoning on a mare who has been on a drylot, that seems very unlikely to me. You can buy your own colostrum from most vet hospitals. I think you just need to be patient.

[zoehesed]

The lack of an udder was more alarming for reasons of fescue toxicity because the vet thought the loose rump meant she was going to foal sooner than her milk would come since there wasn’t anything yet… but this was still 2 days from her actual due date that this was examined and the mare was brought in to the vet upon the vet’s advice to the clinic, where she is at now.

The mare’s owner was concerned if she had the foal that night that we would not be able to get colostrum unless the mare had it at the clinic because they would not let us have any to take home if she had it at the farm.

How much is too much for fescue toxicity? Would stubble be enough?

I really appreciate all of the advice! Thank you everyone… it’s been very helpful.

[pony_grandma]

Better to be safe but I don’t really see the panic here yet.

The fescue toxicity is more about a red bag birth than the udder, and I highly doubt some nibbles in a dry lot are enough. We had a mare foal earlier than expected and she was barely bagged up with a bit of wax on a teat. I can’t remember the name of the medication we got for her, I drove to pick it up early am the morning she foaled, but her milk came in just fine then and the foal passed his IgG test.

The vet sounds a wee bit like they are controlling and creating panic to do business. The loose rump happens early and is present for quite a while really. But foaling is not an absolute science and when it goes bad it goes bad quickly. If the mare owners need to feel safe then it’s their decision.

Yes same thing we used after birthing for milk production
http://equimed.com/drugs-and-medications/reference/domperidone

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=zoehesed;8651127]
The lack of an udder was more alarming for reasons of fescue toxicity because the vet thought the loose rump meant she was going to foal sooner than her milk would come since there wasn’t anything yet… but this was still 2 days from her actual due date that this was examined and the mare was brought in to the vet upon the vet’s advice to the clinic, where she is at now.

The mare’s owner was concerned if she had the foal that night that we would not be able to get colostrum unless the mare had it at the clinic because they would not let us have any to take home if she had it at the farm.

How much is too much for fescue toxicity? Would stubble be enough?

I really appreciate all of the advice! Thank you everyone… it’s been very helpful.[/QUOTE]
Many maidens don’t build much of an udder until foaling or even shortly after foaling. I think your vet is attempting to drum up business by playing on your fears.

[JB]

[QUOTE=JJ’sLuckyTrain;8651074]
I would have to disagree. Use of domperidone is not always indicated in a situation lke this.[/QUOTE]

Can you explain?

To me, if a vet is that concerned about fescue toxicity, then domperidone is very indicated for use starting about day 325 (ie 15 days out from 340). The vet is already worried about it, and already feels the rump muscles are indicating a closer foaling than the udder development indicates, and lack of milk production is one of the issues of fescue toxicity.

[JB]

[QUOTE=zoehesed;8651127]

How much is too much for fescue toxicity? Would stubble be enough? [/QUOTE]
Some studies suggest any amount on a regular basis is too much. Some seem to indicate that if it’s diluted enough in the overall diet it’s not a risk. Stubble is a lower risk but not a zero risk.

[QUOTE=pony grandma;8651287]The fescue toxicity is more about a red bag birth than the udder, and I highly doubt some nibbles in a dry lot are enough. We had a mare foal earlier than expected and she was barely bagged up with a bit of wax on a teat. I can’t remember the name of the medication we got for her, I drove to pick it up early am the morning she foaled, but her milk came in just fine then and the foal passed his IgG test.

The vet sounds a wee bit like they are controlling and creating panic to do business. The loose rump happens early and is present for quite a while really. But foaling is not an absolute science and when it goes bad it goes bad quickly. If the mare owners need to feel safe then it’s their decision.

Yes same thing we used after birthing for milk production
http://equimed.com/drugs-and-medications/reference/domperidone[/QUOTE]
Agree - sounds like the vet knows just enough about all this to be dangerous and panic-inducing.

Fescue doesn’t have to be present to have a mare not produce any or enough milk after foaling, and yes, domperidone (now approved and sold as Equidone) is used for that.

Red bag is definitely an issue, but fescue toxicity does easily suppress milk production, and even if there is some milk, it can be insufficient and you have trouble with the foal - ulcers, lack of weight gain, etc.

[butiwantedapony]

Fwiw my maiden mare has been quite lax in her rump/tail for over a month, and we are only at day 333 today. She has a small bag, not much. I think your vet is over reacting.

[Jim_R]

Sure sounds like the Vet does not have much experience either.
What is the logic of no colostrum except at the clinic?
The Vets logic seems strange to me.

[zoehesed]

[QUOTE=Jim R;8652697]
Sure sounds like the Vet does not have much experience either.
What is the logic of no colostrum except at the clinic?
The Vets logic seems strange to me.[/QUOTE]

They said it was their policy to prevent it being given wrong so the foal doesn’t aspirate it and get sick. I guess they tube it in?

I have no experience with what is normally done for this so when I saw people here talking about getting some to have on hand I wondered if what this vet does may not be typical? This particular vet is the reproductive expert at this clinic so we have just been going off of what they are telling us since we do not know anything else.

As of yesterday afternoon the mare is still at the clinic waiting for baby. Her udders are getting a little puffier each day. Today is 1 day past her due date now.

[Laurierace]

For starters, horses don’t have due dates, they have due ranges so get that part out of your mind so it doesn’t add to your apprehension. You can tube colostrum but assuming the foal has a suck reflex you can bottle feed it as well. I personally milk my mare and give a few ounces of colostrum before the foal attempts to stand so I know it is on board before the foal starts touching stuff with it’s mouth. Don’t be surprised if you are at the clinic for at least a couple more weeks.

[JB]

Exactly, she is not “past due”. 340 is just a point in time to give some reference.

Tubing a newborn foal is incredibly risky, and not something I’d ever allow to any but a dummy foal or a foal otherwise without any suckle reflex. Put the colostrum in a bottle and let the foal nurse off the bottle.

I agree she’s probably got at least a week, possibly a couple, based on the description of things.

[pony_grandma]

It’s been ten days. Any baby yet?

[zoehesed]

No baby yet… we are still waiting… and waiting…

[zoehesed]

so um… STILL waiting…