A good rider can do the lateral work rising trot, why not allow your horse to use his back as much as possible while suppling his body. But that same rider must also be able to do a sitting trot, and use his seat.
The sitting trot can be learned. For some it is more easily learned than others.
[QUOTE=Janet;4060073]
And I have discovered that the horses I ride (not warmbloods) need to have the beginnings of ācollected trotā (as an exercise) before they can demonstrate a good ātrot lengtheningā, even though the lengthening comes first in the test progression. [/QUOTE] You have it backwards. First comes thrusting/pushing power and then comes collection.
Collection also comes much latter in the dressage training pyramid, just like in tests. You canāt develop collection before thrusting/pushing power. Itās all about the hind end and horses develop a pushing power in their hind end first and then this pushing power progresses/develops in to collection. It also about the balance and with pushing power comes a level balance (with the lack of pushing power, the horse is on the forehand) Then this level balance progresses to the uphill balance with the developing more sitting/carrying power in the hind end.
If you canāt do lengthening = you donāt have a thrusting/pushing power. If you donāt have a thrusting power = you donāt have collection. You need to have a thrusting power to lengthen and horseās back should be unblocked for lengthening, so the horse can reach with his hind legs under his belly and push himself forward, thus developing more power from behind.
Posting is more beneficial for building thrusting & pushing power since there is less interference with horseās back. Classical masters even teach half steps posting.
There is really no need to torture horses with an unbalanced sitting trot at 1st level. If the whole test will be ridden in posting trot, it will add ease and fluency to the picture and it will not take anything away.
I totallly understand what the pro-rising folks are saying (letās make it easier on the horse, you can have impulsion while rising, etc.) and there are many very good, valid points, but I see it differentlyā¦
The other thread about the cha-chunk (aka jackhammer butt) riders raises the point that there are riders out there showing at levels that are too high for them, when they have not developed their seats.
I donāt think itās a good idea to make it easier for people to move up by decreasing the level of difficulty.
I would foresee novice riders thinking, āGee, I can pretty much almost sit the trot. I guess Iām ready for Second!ā
If youāre tired of being stuck at Training Level because you canāt sit the trotā¦ then do something about it. More practice. Ride without stirrups. Lunge lessons. Fitness training off the horse.
I really didnāt like the double bridle being allowed at Third Level. In my opinion all that accomplished was making it easier for certain rider to cram their horses into a frame. What else should we forgo to make it easier for people to feed their ego by moving up when they shouldnāt?
[QUOTE=merrygoround;4060409]
A good rider can do the lateral work rising trot, why not allow your horse to use his back as much as possible while suppling his body. But that same rider must also be able to do a sitting trot, and use his seat.
The sitting trot can be learned. For some it is more easily learned than others.[/QUOTE]
I cliniced with CArl Hester a couple of times- he would only ride the horse in rising trot.PERIOD. He obviously knew that he could sit the trot and that he didnāt need to 'practice ā the sitting trot. But his training was all based on rising trot- weāre talking rising trot half passesā¦developing the totally over the back horse that is light in the bridle, not holding itself in any part of the body and swinging the back like none otherā¦
I learned how to rise the āadvanced trotā as I call it - during his clinicsā¦I realized that the true requirement for a good rider is total body control. Because it is then, that you can really ride the horse freely and not worry about where You are- as your body is this soft, yet tight functioning tool that can balance the horse while holding itself very lightly on the horse. This is how great gaits in talented horses get maintained and developed further, this is how total fluidity becomes a habit for the horseā¦
I am a great believer in rising trot as a training tool. The tests require the movements to be ridden as stated. The training is in your hands. If you want to create a swingy, fluid trot- rise the trotā¦trying to force trot or collection before first achieving lightness and total body swing over the back- is completely non-sensical. JMO
I think many if not most dressage instructors teach students to post the trot quite a bit, actually, and to get a feeling for when the horseās back is warmed up enough for sitting trot and when to go back to posting trot. Thatās a pretty important part of learning dressage.
It is actually quite difficult to do lateral work in the rising trot. Many people find it impossible at a certain stage. The horse has to be to the point where he is doing the lateral work without requiring a lot of pushing and struggling, and he is doing lateral work off of very light bending aids, I think though it is very important to get to that point where one can post and do half pass, shoulder in, haunches in, renvers and earlier on, leg yield.
A person does need to master the sitting trot to do dressage, though. The fact that warming up in posting trot is good for the horse doesnāt take away the fact that one still has to learn to sit the trot.
Over time, the horse and rider get so they can sit the trot for longer periods of time. If one avoids it, one doesnāt progress, if one overdoes it too early itās bad for the horseās back.
I am all for keeping the sitting trot mandatory at first level. Otherwise people will be whingeing that it should be put off til 4th level, or whatever level they are unlikely of reachingā¦LOL.
Dressage Art, what are you talking about? thrusting/pushing power? You do need a different level of connection/collection (which means the horse IS pushing from behind) before you do a lengthening or an extension. So it is introduced at First Level.
And I would not call sitting the trot torture for the horse unless your seat sucks or you are unfit. Once my 4 year-old is warmed up I might do one trip around the arena of sitting trot.
It varies with horse/rider obviously.
If you are effective with your weight aids, you can do lateral work while rising - believe me, my trainer makes me do it all the time! Iād MUCH rather sit (and am one of those who has always felt better sitting the trot). She makes me do half pass, renvers, travers, shoulder in, TRANS between shoulder in and renvers while posting:eek: YUCK!
It may interest people to hear that this very topic is also discussed by the test writing committee (or so I hear from a very good source) and other higher-ups, some believe sitting trot SHOULD be optional at First Level. For the good of the horse and for the good of the rider. Some riders will never be able to sit the trot well, and some could at one point in their lives, but as age or injury changes their bodies, they are now limited to posting. Some of you have bad backs and cantā sit anymore (and some of us know this is in our future!). Allowing posting at First Level gives people a place to go - yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it isnāt all about people, but in reality, it IS partly about the rider. And it IS partly about the less skilled rider. And giving people a place to go above Training Level IS good for the horse too!
Like it or not, there are many,many less skilled riders in this sport, and in reality, they PAY for the sport - they fill up our Training Level classes at the shows, they venture into First level. They keep trainers employed, they shop with the sponsors, they buy horses, they are a huge, huge part of our sport. Iām all for allowing posting at First Level - for the good of the horse, for the good of the rider, for the good of the sport:yes:
[QUOTE=Bogey2;4061564]
Dressage Art, what are you talking about? thrusting/pushing power?[/QUOTE]
Itās all clearly written in the āpurposeā of the 1st level. This is the essence of each level and itās very beneficial to get familiar with them. If you donāt know the āpurposeā of the level, you are risking in riding tricks rather than confirming ābasicsā of that level.
If you donāt have tests sheets where you can read āpurposeā, Iāll be glad to paste it for you here latter.
[QUOTE=Sabine;4061471]
I cliniced with CArl Hester a couple of times- he would only ride the horse in rising trot.PERIOD. [/QUOTE]YES, YES!!! How lucky you are to have a chance to ride with him. What else did you learn from him?
[QUOTE=FriesianX;4062153]
If you are effective with your weight aids, you can do lateral work while rising - believe me, my trainer makes me do it all the time![/QUOTE] I find it easier to keep the even rhythm going in lateral work when Iām posting and so many riders loose the tempo and the rhythm during lateral work. I would think posting will be helpful for that as well.
I hope that they will make it optional. There is no need for horses to struggle under riders who bounce all over the place and bang them in the mouth. It will be for the good of the horse.
It would be even better for āthe good of the horseā if they stayed at training level til they tlearned to sit the trot.
Is that so? Isnāt lateral work good for the long-term conditioning of the horse, and isnāt having a judge to tell you whether youāre doing it right a good thing?
Just asking.
oh, another positive in posting L. Y. is that it is harder to clamp the outside leg to the horseās side - so by posting rider will create an automatic push/release cycle of aids = which is the correct way to apply aids.
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4062522]
oh, another positive in posting L. Y. is that it is harder to clamp the outside leg to the horseās side - so by posting rider will create an automatic push/release cycle of aids = which is the correct way to apply aids.[/QUOTE]
And less riders are likely to overbend the horse in leg yield when posting. So often at first level, we see the horse who is cranked to the inside and popping the shoulder to the outside in an attempt to LY. In posting trot, it is less likely (yes, it can still happen) to see that.
DA, itās also called collection which is what Janet was talking about. And you assume a lot with the clutching commentā¦what are you all going to do when you want to show second level? Ask them to change the rules for you then as well. I understand the requirements of the levels and have ridden some of them myselfā¦that is why I think learning to sit the trot and getting the horse through to the collection requirement is very important to moving up the levels. So when do you want to sit the trot or do lateral work sitting?
[QUOTE=FriesianX;4062539]
And less riders are likely to overbend the horse in leg yield when posting. So often at first level, we see the horse who is cranked to the inside and popping the shoulder to the outside in an attempt to LY. In posting trot, it is less likely (yes, it can still happen) to see that.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely! While sitting itās so easy to create a crooked horse and for rider collapse as well. Resulting in crooked rider and crooked horse doing side-stepping. I just hope that their trainers take time explaining that side-stepping is NOT so important in the L. Y = that the most important is the SAME tempo, EVEN rhythm and CORRECT alignment of horse and rider.
Posting itās a bit harder to have incorrect alignment, since while in the āupā phase of posting rider can re-align herself. While sitting, itās just keep collapsing and keep pushing and clampingā¦
It really boggles my mind at times to realize how many riders simply do not understand what a L. Y. isā¦ and this is not their fault if they are not riding it correctly,ā¦ they simply were not taught what a quality L. Y. isā¦ and many donāt have mirrors so they have to rely on the ground help for the feedback.
[QUOTE=Bogey2;4062647]
DA, itās also called collection which is what Janet was talking about. And you assume a lot with the clutching commentā¦what are you all going to do when you want to show second level? Ask them to change the rules for you then as well. I understand the requirements of the levels and have ridden some of them myselfā¦that is why I think learning to sit the trot and getting the horse through to the collection requirement is very important to moving up the levels. So when do you want to sit the trot or do lateral work sitting?[/QUOTE]
You /Janet claim that you develop collection first and then you develop thrusting power? So it seems that itās you who is asking to change the rules 
There NO collection at 1st level. Collection starts at 2nd level. And this thread is about 1st level, right? So we are still talking about 1st level, right?
Iām afraid that we do disagree on the question what comes first: pushing power or collection? And I believe that my position on that is correct and you are mistaken (or there is a simply misunderstanding). I already wrote an extensive answer that I believe that pushing/thrusting power comes first at 1st level = and it needs to be developed first. (You didnāt even know what thrusting/pushing power is?) Collection comes latter at 2nd level. With out pushing power, you can NOT develop collection. It seems that you believe that you can develop collection before developing a pushing and thrusting power? And sitting trot helps you develop it???
There is a clear difference between those two and you can not confuse them or bunch them together as one. Itās the same as saying that shoulder-in is the same as Leg Yieldā¦ and unfortunately I did read those statements on COTH and those posters were also trying to convince me that they are correct :lol:
Work on 2 tracks is different than lateral movements. L. Y. is work on 2 tracks. Shoulder-in, Renvers traverse, Half Pass is lateral movements that do require collection and should be performed on a sitting trot. Work on 2 tracks such as L. Y. doesnāt require collection and doesnāt need to be performed sitting (IMHO)
I am simply claiming that BEFORE I started working on collection (at home), my trot lengthenings EITHER got the comment ānot enoughā OR got the comment āfalling on forehandā.
AFTER I started working on collection at home, my trot lengthenings were āenoughā without falling on the forehand.
This is a 3/4 bred TB x QH with VERY powerful hindquarters, and a preference for going on the forehand. (My instructor sometimes refers to her as a āwheelbarrowā.)
Bingo. Not that Iām a great rider, but I can sit the trot just fine - when the horse is properly through and strong enough for first level work. On most horses, with relatively average movement, sitting the trot shouldnāt be so difficult. Sure, it requires some strength, and getting used to the body mechanics, but if your horseās trot is really, truly impossible to sit, then it tells you something about how they are carrying their back.
Of course, there are some really big moving horses whose trots I know I could NEVER sit, but I think for most of us, sitting becomes easier when the horse is really ready for it and using their back.
there is a degree of collection at First Levelā¦the expectation for the level of collection changes as you work up the levels right? Have you ridden First 3 or 4? Trust me, if I could not sit the trot and have my horse somewhat collected I am not going to be able to do the required movements. It is obviously not the same collection needed at second level but it is preparing you for second level yes?
So maybe we are calling it two different things but like slc said, you should not move on to First if you are not capable of sitting the trot (which btw is easier when the horse is truly over the back and thrusting those hind legs as you say). But rider fitness and proper seat are key to influencing the horses way of going.
There are some horses that will never get out of training level because they are not built for the workā¦I own a couple and they very happily carry the rider through the basit TR Level then the rider moves on.
I do agree that the rider can get in the way and jam a horse up at that levelā¦but I also see a lot lovely First Level rides.
so let me ask you again, when would you introduce the sitting trot?
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