First Level do I rise or sit the trot?

[RogersChapelFarm]

I think the argument about which comes first collection or thrust is because you are exchanging the term collection for engagement. You must first load the hocks(engage) to get the realease.(thrust)

Engagement
Increased flexion of the joints of the hind legs, during its weight-bearing phase. This causes a relative lowering of the quarters/raising of the forehand, thus shifting more of the task of loading-bearing to the hindquarters. A prerequisite for upward thrust/impulsion. Engagement is not flexion of the hocks or “hock action” in which the joints of the hind legs are markedly flexed while the leg is in the air. Nor is engagement merely the length of the step of the hind leg forward toward the horse’s girth - that is reach of the hind leg.

[ToN_Farm]

Rogers Chapel, I think that what you wrote is incorrect as well. The definition of Engagement is 99.9% correct, but has a semantics issue that is misleading. That is that ‘engagement’ is prerequisite for THRUST. Engagement is not required for First Level Thrust. Maybe where the words went wrong is when they wrote ‘upward thrust’. Upward thrust is Collection. Engagement is a prerequsite for Collection. It is is not upward thrust that is required at First Level, but forward thrust; pushing power.

While Collection is the top of the Training Pyramid, let us keep in mind that the Pyramid parts are interchangeable. You can be working on a little Collection early on, as in playing with some half-steps. I think what Bogey is saying is that to get a good scoring lengthening in First Level, it is a plus to have been working some collection.

FreisianSport, I am so unhappy to hear that they are rethinking taking the sitting trot out of First Level. I hate the the tests are being dumbed down to benefit poor riders. Training and First Level should not be places where novice riders are, but where novice horses are.

I agree with SLC. If you can’t sit, stay in Training Level. But really, if you can’t sit, you are not a dressage rider.

[FriesianX]

[QUOTE=ToN Farm;4062996]

FreisianSport, I am so unhappy to hear that they are rethinking taking the sitting trot out of First Level. I hate the the tests are being dumbed down to benefit poor riders. Training and First Level should not be places where novice riders are, but where novice horses are.

I agree with SLC. If you can’t sit, stay in Training Level. But really, if you can’t sit, you are not a dressage rider.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think the point is to dumb things down, I think the point is to give people somewhere to go that can’t sit. Not ALL riders can’t sit because of lack of education and lack of years in the saddle, there are plenty of people who were very capable upper level riders who no longer have the flexibility/ability to sit anymore. And, these are only discussions from some, I’m not sure they will do it or not. But at least SOME are asking the question. I don’t think it is a bad thing but I also see the great need to keep our lower level riders engaged in our sport!

[RogersChapelFarm]

ToN Farm Well what I wrote is actually from USDF not from me… it’s always up for debate with them of course but I use their definition here and in prep for the L program…it’s also shown here

The 2007 USDF rule book defines it as "…Thrust. Releasing of the energy stored by engagement. The energy is transmitted through a back that is free from negative tension and is manifested in the horse’s elastic, whole-body movement.[1]

also from J Ashton Moore in USDF Connection

Impulsion is:
Impulsion is thrust. As defined on the FEI
tests in the original French, impulsion is
le desire de se porter en avant—literally
“the desire to carry himself forward.”
Impulsion is the release of the energy stored
in engagement, achieved when the bent
and grounded hind leg is straightened.
“Good impulsion” gives the impression
of upward as well as forward thrust.

So thrust/engagement and impusion are relevant to First Level.

[JackSprats_Mom]

There is no need for horses to struggle under riders who bounce all over the place and bang them in the mouth. It will be for the good of the horse.

Surely though, if the rider is bouncing around all over the place they shouldn’t be riding first level? Making it easier for people to move up when they’re not ready is in no way beneficial to dressage. I agree with whoever said it was dumbing it down.

Not ALL riders can’t sit because of lack of education and lack of years in the saddle, there are plenty of people who were very capable upper level riders who no longer have the flexibility/ability to sit anymore

Again, if they don’t have the flexibility, irregardless of whether its due to age or skill they shouldn’t be riding higher levels.

[Dressage_Art]

It’ll take 2 posts for me to respond to your questions…

[QUOTE=Bogey2;4062755]
Have you ridden First 3 or 4?[/QUOTE]
Yes. I just got back from the weekend show with scores from 62% to 65%, I show my mare at 3/4th level now, but YES, I did show at 1st level as well, last time it was in 2005,… actually the same mare that I’m bringing up the levels.

@Bogey2;4062755

you should not move on to First if you are not capable of sitting the trot (which btw is easier when the horse is truly over the back and thrusting those hind legs as you say). But rider fitness and proper seat are key to influencing the horse’s way of going.

I agree that riders should not move up to 1st level if their sitting trot is not developed yet. However, some riders still move up and bang their horse’s mouth with hands that they can not control yet. Some are just not realistic enough to self police themselves… but that notion would take us back to the “qualification” standards and we’ll see that riders do not want to have qualifications, so I think the best alternative is to give an option to riders to make their horses as comfortable as they can, by making sitting trot optional at 1st level.

[QUOTE=Bogey2;4062755]There are some horses that will never get out of training level because they are not built for the work…I own a couple and they very happily carry the rider through the basit TR Level then the rider moves on.[/QUOTE]Oh, I think most horses can be trained to at least 2nd level, IF they are sound…it’s not a rocket science, really…

@Bogey2;4062755

so let me ask you again, when would you introduce the sitting trot?

I started to ride in Europe under the military kind of trainer, so I had to ride for 2 years on the lunge line and “earn” my rains and spurs. I’m lucky to be able to clinic with Arthur Kottas when he comes to US and he tells that he lunges all of his riders 1 time per week, even GP riders. At the beginning riders need to learn how to sit the trot, but b/c of their youth it’s easier for them. With age and injuries riders become less supple and they are in need of just maintaining their learned sitting trot. So it’s beneficial for anybody.

If lunging is not an option, I would start training sitting trot from the start of training on the circle: 4 strides sitting, 4 strides posting, 4 strides sitting, 4 strides posting, and so on for as long as the rider can do it. Then stop with this exercise for the day and repeat the same thing next day. Do it every day, for as long as you can. When the rider can sit the trot for at least a full circle, then I would introduce another exercise: Leg Yielding nose to rail along the long sides sitting and posting on the short sides. Sitting the trot is actually easier if the rider is a bit busy with repetitive aids - thus slight L.Y. But rider should not be focused on keeping her horse from running off - thus nose to rail. When that is easy, I would take stirrups away on the canter and do canter work with out stirrups. Then when rider is comfortable riding the canter with out stirrups, I would ask rider to ride trot with out stirrups. (Canter is actually easier to sit with out stirrups, but the following with your seat and balancing yourself in the middle of the saddle - is the same as in trot)

Sitting trot needs to be correctly practiced every day for very short periods of time. Rider should exercise at walk, at trot, at canter, at sitting trot, and at posting trot stretching EVERY day. It is this EVERY day exercising that will gain an ability to be fit to sit the trot. Now, that might take years, but the result will be better than telling to a rider to sit a whole test one day. And there are riders who do not sit the trot for even a whole test at home, but hoping to sit the trot at a show.

Now, IMHO there are several sitting trots:

*a passive sitting trot - the rider is capable of sitting the trot quite nicely when horse is on autopilot and rider can focus 99% of her attention on the sitting the trot.

*a riding sitting trot - the rider has to steer the horse, thus dividing her focus 50/50% on horse and on her sitting trot, and still able to sit quite nicely.

*a training sitting trot - in the situations of difficulties such as spooks, misbehavior, shying, avoidance, and such, the rider needs to devote 99% of her attention to the horse and her sitting trot is on the autopilot.

*a re-sitting trot with an injury - riders with hip replacement or previously broken bones, permanent pain who have to re-learn how to sit the trot.

*an ultimate sitting trot that we all admire that nothing can shake off, rider is one with the horse in any situation.

It is very important to understand that there is no such thing as one kind of sitting trot and it’s very important to understand that it’s like stringing beads on a string: sitting trot develops in stages. You do have to start to develop it as soon as possible, but they key is in short amounts.

I think the rider is ready for sitting trot in a test when her hands are not banging on horse’s mouth

[ceegeetee]

Going to try to revive this thread - have the rules changed since 2009? I just read the 1-1 test and it says trot can be rising or sitting unless specifically noted (I think only specifically says rising trot for stretchy circle). But in previous posts on this thread it says must sit.

Do the judges prefer if you sit (obviously competent sitting- not bouncing all over).

Thanks!

[the_sandiest_shoes]

@ceegeetee

Going to try to revive this thread - have the rules changed since 2009? I just read the 1-1 test and it says trot can be rising or sitting unless specifically noted (I think only specifically says rising trot for stretchy circle). But in previous posts on this thread it says must sit.

Do the judges prefer if you sit (obviously competent sitting- not bouncing all over).

Thanks!

Yes, it’s optional under the current tests (except for when they specifically tell you to do rising trot on the stretchy circle, etc.)

The judges are not supposed to act preferential for one or other, since it’s not a requirement. I would choose whichever seems to support your horse and your riding the best for the individual movements. You can sit part of it, rise part of it, whatever helps you complete the movements to the best of your ability in your own partnership with the horse (whatever helps balance you both, for example). I think it depends on your individual partnership for what is best.

[BigMama1]

Every judge I have ever scribed for has wondered aloud why amateurs don’t ride the test in posting trot, given the option, and opined that a horse would have gone better and marks would have been higher if they hadn’t attempted to sit.

Most of us truly do not ride as well sitting as we do posting, particularly with extra tension, nerves etc., which then has a negative effect on the quality of the gaits, submission, and sonin. So my advice would be generally to do it in rising trot since it is allowed.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

@BigMama1

Every judge I have ever scribed for has wondered aloud why amateurs don’t ride the test in posting trot, given the option, and opined that a horse would have gone better and marks would have been higher if they hadn’t attempted to sit.

Most of us truly do not ride as well sitting as we do posting, particularly with extra tension, nerves etc., which then has a negative effect on the quality of the gaits, submission, and sonin. So my advice would be generally to do it in rising trot since it is allowed.

I generally agree with this - I’ve done it sitting when I’ve ridden a horse that felt kind of wild at the show, because I felt I could be more in control of him if he were to bolt or buck when I was in a sitting position rather than rising (or I did a mix of both).

[SillyHorse]

@BigMama1

Every judge I have ever scribed for has wondered aloud why amateurs don’t ride the test in posting trot, given the option, and opined that a horse would have gone better and marks would have been higher if they hadn’t attempted to sit.

I have had the same experience when scribing. The judge prefers you do whatever is right for your horse at the time.

[kcmel]

@BigMama1

Most of us truly do not ride as well sitting as we do posting, particularly with extra tension, nerves etc., which then has a negative effect on the quality of the gaits, submission, and sonin. So my advice would be generally to do it in rising trot since it is allowed.

I just had this discussion with my trainer. I experimented with sitting the trot in a novice level eventing test (~training level). We school the sitting trot at home a lot and I sit when we do first level tests at schooling shows. My test was about 5 points better than I had been getting, and I was 4th after dressage bunched with the top group, and only 1 point behind my other horse in the division, which is much closer than typical (my 2nd horse is almost alway in top 3 after dressage).

The jude was very complimentary, but did comment on back sometimes tense and put in the comment on rider “Try rising?”. My dressage trainer’s comment was that the judge couldn’t directly compare between me rising or sitting. I find it much easier to keep a consistent, correct tempo when sitting, and when rising he tends to get long and on the forehand.

So really any judge is only guessing that the horse would go better with the rider rising. So I would do what was you and your trainer think is best for you horse.

[merrygoround]

@Dressage Art

Sitting at 1st level is the biggest hold up for many riders. I wish USEF would pass the rule that you can post at 1st level. There are many riders who can ride a good 1st level test posting, but can’t control their bodies YET at sitting trot thru the whole test.

Monty [Quote]
why is it sitting for the whole test? is there a point like to make it harder to move up? [Quote]

As said by at least two previous posters, until the rider is able to properly sit the trot, they really cannot engage the horse properly. Yes, some of it can be done at the rising trot, but that is only because the rider has the strength and balance to do so. At that point, they also have the capability of sitting, and using their seat. Many of us do it to demand less work at that moment in training of the horse’s back.

Riders who cannot sit the trot, really are incapable of properly producing the required test.

[Jealoushe]

@BigMama1

Every judge I have ever scribed for has wondered aloud why amateurs don’t ride the test in posting trot, given the option, and opined that a horse would have gone better and marks would have been higher if they hadn’t attempted to sit.

Most of us truly do not ride as well sitting as we do posting, particularly with extra tension, nerves etc., which then has a negative effect on the quality of the gaits, submission, and sonin. So my advice would be generally to do it in rising trot since it is allowed.

THIS X 100. I also listened to an episode on the dressage radio podcast who says the same thing. For the love of god post if your horse goes better that way.

[joiedevie99]

To the person who bumped the thread, yes - the rules now allow posting at first level. I’ve never seen a judge comment to say that the rider should have been sitting. I think it’s extremely common for the judge to comment in the other direction. I would post unless there is a specific reason why your horse goes better sitting.

[TequilaMockingbird]

I ride better and my horse goes better for me while sitting as I keep her straighter, more engaged and on the bit. So I sit everything except for the parts where it asks me to post. This is more that I ride better while sitting the trot. My horse may go better with a different rider while rising than sitting.

[bip]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;n10481108]

Monty

why is it sitting for the whole test? is there a point like to make it harder to move up? [Quote]

As said by at least two previous posters, until the rider is able to properly sit the trot, they really cannot engage the horse properly. Yes, some of it can be done at the rising trot, but that is only because the rider has the strength and balance to do so. At that point, they also have the capability of sitting, and using their seat. Many of us do it to demand less work at that moment in training of the horse’s back.

Riders who cannot sit the trot, really are incapable of properly producing the required test.

They would have been capable of producing that 1st level test, but would not have been able to make the transition to 2nd.

[Training_Cupid]

@the sandiest shoes

Yes, it’s optional under the current tests (except for when they specifically tell you to do rising trot on the stretchy circle, etc.)

The judges are not supposed to act preferential for one or other, since it’s not a requirement. I would choose whichever seems to support your horse and your riding the best for the individual movements. You can sit part of it, rise part of it, whatever helps you complete the movements to the best of your ability in your own partnership with the horse (whatever helps balance you both, for example). I think it depends on your individual partnership for what is best.

I’ve only shown Training thus far, and will stick to posting when we move up to 1st because I’m more comfortable with it, but I’ve heard that it’s best to stick to either sitting or posting throughout (except if the test specifies otherwise for a particular movement).

[SillyHorse]

@Training Cupid

I’ve only shown Training thus far, and will stick to posting when we move up to 1st because I’m more comfortable with it, but I’ve heard that it’s best to stick to either sitting or posting throughout (except if the test specifies otherwise for a particular movement).

Because…?

[the_sandiest_shoes]

@Training Cupid

I’ve only shown Training thus far, and will stick to posting when we move up to 1st because I’m more comfortable with it, but I’ve heard that it’s best to stick to either sitting or posting throughout (except if the test specifies otherwise for a particular movement).

I mean, if switching would affect the harmony of your riding, then don’t switch (and probably just stick with posting). The judge is really looking at the test as a whole, and each movement individually - do whatever you need to get the best test out of yourself and your horse. I mostly ride First and Training with younger horses, so if they’re spooking or something, I might sit the trot in one area to help push them past the scary part and secure my seat in case they decide to have a meltdown. For lengthening diagonals, I’ll usually do rising since it helps me especially in that movement. There’s a horse I did Third Level with recently who was a bit nutso at shows, so I would do posting trot going around the ring right up until we entered at A, in order to help release some of the tension in his back. It’s so individual. If you’re newer to dressage, you’ll likely have a better test doing posting trot. There’s no points you get for doing sitting if it’s not doing your horse any favors.