Absolutely! Hope you don’t think I was being critical of your reasons for competing. I just wanted to explain my own, in the interest of the discussion.
I do agree that division-splitting decisions sometimes appear odd. I often don’t understand why A/B/C are used vs. Horse/Rider/Open. At a recent-ish event in Area II there were Open Training and Training Rider divisions, but Beginner Novice was A/B/C. I tend to assume that there are administrative reasons, and I hate to impose any more burden on show organizers because I think it’s likely already a giant headache and a labor of love. But maybe there is a “better” way that would also be equally simple?
Thank you for that. I have felt a tad judged generally for being competitive in a competition, (which seems funny, esp when we idolize professional competitors!) but we are all doing this for different reasons, and get satisfaction from different results, which is no better or worse than any other reason to do it.
What gets me is the people I see feeling defeated and giving up because they try their hardest and cannot feel a sense of accomplishment that’s publicly recognized. We are a social animal, and as much as we can all dig deep and recognize our strengths and achievements within ourselves, praise and recognition are strong drivers to all - human and horse alike. A cheap ribbon to encourage the beginners is not paving the path to Babylon, for all the depravity of the hunter ring (I feel the argument that it’s a slippery slope is fallacious. As are all slippery slope arguments.)
Yeah - that’s exactly my feeling. I have volunteered at events, have managed volunteers in a different endeavor for 12 years, and go around thanking volunteers all day and really don’t want to suggest a problem without a solution to match… acutely aware of asking too much!
Oh well, I am sure nothing will come of this, except that I am currently mailing a lifetime achievement award to @RAyers with a box of matches so he can burn the ribbon and scorn me with satisfaction
Wanting to water down the competition so you have a chance at a ribbon isn’t wanting to be competitive in a competition…it’s wanting to compete against people you think you can beat so you can place and making sure no one you think might have better skills than you shows up/
If you truly wanted to be competitive in a competition you would train your butt off and put yourself up against the best of the best.
Nope…not trying hard enough. The problem isn’t they aren’t being recognized, the problem is they aren’t as good as they think they are. Train harder, educate yourself more, show less, lesson more.
A lot of the time where I am they don’t split them. If they do it’s not until 15-20 people.
I think splitting so you can ribbon more people is fine but when do you stop whiddling it down? Keep in mind not everyone on a green horse starts at Intro or BN either so you would need a Green division for all levels.
I know I am an anachronism in the sport. When I was a kid we didn’t go to A shows until we were jumping 3’6" because that is where it started. I remember the junior jumpers starting at 4’ or such. I grew up in a world where there were few divisions and you took the pukes you had in the pasture and had to make them into show horses. When I started eventing I started at Training level. There was no other place to start. I never did BN or N until I got my new guy. Heck, I remember being in a division once where there were 50 competitors, including Olympians (I went from 38th after dressage to 7th after XC back then).
The idea of people feeling “defeated” because of the necessity of having a public acknowledgment of it is completely contrary to what was taught to me about being a horseman. And it is sad that this is where the sport is going, if this is true, because it ceases to be about the horse. I am thankful to have been able to compete in the old form of the sport and am willing to not participate in the new form other than to enjoy training and bringing a horse/partner up the ranks.
Are there any year-end or multi-year awards/goals you can achieve? I’m a dressage rider and getting rider awards at specific levels (achieve a certain number of scores >X% at a level) and medals (minimum scores from multiple tests across multiple levels) all mean a lot more to me than my placings.
Could you look at an award and achievement system that awards say 20 points for finishing on your dressage score, 10 points if you have time in the jumping phases, and 5 points for completion with stops/runouts jumping? So a horse that gets average dressage scores but is always clean in the jumping phases would be competitive for the award. And if you think chasing points would be an issue, do it as an average across all of the events you attend in the year with a minimum # of events required.
If you have a year-long or multi-year goal to work towards, then you can show up to an event with goals targeting those achievements rather than a goal for a certain placing/ribbon.
Generally, my goals at a dressage show (besides staying on and staying in the ring on my 4-year old) are all based on achieving a minimum score to qualify for something + improving something specific like our free walk or bend. The only time I have a goal regarding my placing is at championships, and I honestly only qualify and show at championships if they are really close and/or I have a chance to place in the top 10.
Hope you don’t mind this dressage rider chiming in with ideas. It could be an award program you could pilot locally/regionally.
This goes to the roots of the frequent discussion about safety, risk and how to set MERs. When people aren’t as good as they think they are then they frequently move up too fast. Just because they can, and have a ribbon to prove it, doesn’t mean they should. The lack of skills and experience means they can’t keep themselves or their horse safe. But people want ribbons and they want to move up quickly and they don’t want to listen to wiser heads saying “wait”.
USEA does have a really nice score based medal program for BN- Prelim. And many areas have active GMOs or CTAs that offer really nice year end awards to members.
I was just thinking about this thread again, and here’s another reason I don’t care about placings. I want to be able to be completely clear-headed about what’s best/safest for my horse and me XC. If we’re having issues and need to slow down or retire, I don’t want even a hint of a thought resembling, “but we’re in third place right now…if I can just hold it together and get around…” Nope, no ribbon or medal is worth that risk in my mind and I don’t even want to be tempted!
What year was this? When I got started around 2003/4, I got ribbons in BN with my dressage score of high 40’s. Haven’t been able to do that for years.
I haven’t made it through all the posts, but…
I was trying to decide whether to reply to this/ do I just want a ribbon? Well, I’ve won a good number of ribbons, from 4th place down. On my first horse I got 2nd and 3rd at the same venue where the divisions were often 10 riders or less. Never ever have I been first. Is it so wrong of me to suggest (said it here at least once) that they have divisions based on # of 1st places won? Is it possible the Pros would all like to be together someplace other than a 5* to compete against each other instead of people like me? Is it wrong of me to want to see how I would do against others in the same boat as me? I don’t know of recent examples, but there were riders at BN and N here that won nearly every event they entered. Oh, BTW there really aren’t any BNRs here to compete against, so feeling that pride of beating them is not a thing in my world. Closest thing for me was having the local instructor in my second BN event; she won and I got 4th.
I haven’t shown the last 2 years, but most events I go to (Area IV) have 4 or more Novice and BN divisions. So here it’s not that there is just one division running and it wouldn’t take any more ribbons to do this.
I could be way off-base here, but I would be surprised if pros even notice who else is in their class or, for the most part, how they place in BN/Nov/Tr (the levels relevant to a “first-year green” concept). They’re at those levels just to develop the horse, and the horses that interest them the most will move up from there pretty quickly. High placings would be good for marketability of course, but beyond that I doubt they care much. Especially the pros who are riding 10+ horses a day. I would be seriously shocked if they had the bandwidth to notice how many people in their divisions are peers and how many are the rest of us.
I don’t even think its just the pros in many cases. I like to see who is in the division simply to gage how hard I have to ride and who I want to watch. Personally, I grew up riding against all those who became pros so riding against pros is no different than riding against anybody else.
Why do folks care who they ride against? If you want ribbons put the time and training in with good quality trainers etc. That is how you get ribbons, not by diminishing the rider quality against who you compete. Maybe I am just my own unique boat? I would rather see how I do against other boats and not those in my boat.
I don’t know if it would increase entries in the eventing…
The endless subdivisions of teeny hunter/jumper classess actually comes because of the totally different business model. Example: The hj crowd will go and spend 12 weeks in Florida, Suzie is showing her Junior horse and Suzie’s sister is there with the parent(s). Plop the sister in a walk trot/x rails, trainer is getting more cash flow, more lessons etc etc. I don’t know if it has lowered the standards for the rated classess, but does allow for someone who may not ever be able to go around in a rated division (3, 3’6 etc) to have the chance to show. That isn’t a bad thing- not everyone has to be aiming for the Olympics.
The pro takes 3 or 4 x rails 2 footers, estimate low side $50 a day coaching, plus day care, plus splits- the trainer is getting ~ 400 a week per client. Now the pro can ride their own High Performance horse in their division (if they own it). The show wins because they are getting alllll the fees, the trainer can afford to be on the road, show if it is their own horse. Etc.
So I think to compete at rated HTs, it does help to create a more safe situation where there will be greater success, but I look at those little non rated divisions at h/j kind of like the some CT/HT schooling shows. You seem some good riding and people who will continue, people who won’t go anywhere, people who are just having a good time, and some REALLY SCARY riding (I saw all of the above at the nonrated HT this weekend and I tell you- some of those riders would have been pulled or whistled out of the jumper ring).
I can’t speak to current events, but back when I used to volunteer a bit behind the scenes in Area IV, I know for certain the secretaries used to TRY to create evenly matched divisions when possible. Recent event experience/results as written on the entry form was absolutely considered when dividing Novice A and B. Rider and Horse divisions were used…back then there was even a “Restricted” division that was for rider and horse not to have competed above the level. This division eventually fell by the wayside because it rarely filled a balanced division.
In smaller areas, it became easier to just have open divisions of equal size, instead of 10 open, 5 rider, and 6 horse entries, the Secretary can make two open divisions of 10 and 11 entries. Of course it would be ideal to divide based on competitive experience…but it becomes much more convenient to separate riders with multiple horses into different divisions, so there is adequate time between rides.
Competitively, you’d rather have Buck and his 3 horses, Jessica Phoenix with her 2 horses in the Open Training A division, while you are in OT B with other ammys. However, there may simply not be enough ring time to fit all of the multiple horses in the same division, and it would make life a lot easier to have Buck and Jessica’s horses split into the A and B divisions so they can have ample time between rides.
About 3 or 4 years ago. As always BN had a lot of entries and at one in particular, a number of people had refusals at the 1st jump - it was one with cut outs at the base. My horse did hesitate but I just kept leg on and told her “you can do this girl” and she did. The rest of the course was foot perfect. We ended in 9th place (ribbons to 10).
Another time, at the bottom of the barrel after dressage, did our xc and shot up to 3rd in a large field. I was looking at the prizes and didn’t like what was given for 3rd place and wanted the prize for 5th place (saddle pad and a nice dressage whip). My horse graciously dropped a rail in show jumping and we ended up in 5th. Good girl!
(I feel the argument that it’s a slippery slope is fallacious. As are all slippery slope arguments.)
