First year green eventing?

[Trak_Eventer]

This has been an interesting thread! I grew up Eventing (and now back living) in Area IV. In college I was out on the east coast. There are simply not enough competitors in the non-Eventing Mecca areas. I would much rather be in a division of 15 and get a 5th place than a division of 7 and get 1st or 2nd. But, at the end of the day I would just be out there trying to improve on myself. I haven’t shown in a few years because of horse injury, but plan on getting back out in a few years on my baby. Goal for the first year of showing…. complete and gain confidence. I also love the YEH stuff. I did a few years and years ago on my mare. Again, availability in the middle of the country sucks. My local Eventing organization has great year ended prizes . Points can be earned at recognized and schooling shows.

When I was a JR/YR I won a lot on my nice mare. She had the genetics and basics to be a lovely horse. I got her as a 3yo and brought her along with good help. When I moved out east for college and took her with me I wasn’t winning all the time. I had to up my game. A 32 on the flat wasn’t going to win. I needed to do better… train better, be more accurate in the ring, etc. So I did!

This is an extreme example, but look at Sam… how many gold medals did that horse win? He isn’t the fanciest mover, but he had a rider who squeezed every point out in the dressage ring with good riding, position, accuracy. Horses move better than others. That will always be. But that nice moving horse could have an egg 20m circle and that OTTB who isn’t a flashy mover could have a perfect 20m circle.

Trust me, I love swag. But, as I have been forced to take a break from showing I’ve realized the reason I loved competing wasn’t for any swag or ribbon… it was for the community and friends.

Now back to worth after just rambling forever and ever

[Xanthoria]

@EventerAJ

back then there was even a “Restricted” division that was for rider and horse not to have competed above the level. This division eventually fell by the wayside because it rarely filled a balanced division.

So this existed before? And the world did not devolve into a hunter-style shambles? Well well.

[Janet]

@Xanthoria

So this existed before? And the world did not devolve into a hunter-style shambles? Well well.

The “Restricted” Division existed in the rule book, but few Horse Trials offered it.

[LadyB]

seems like a waste to me unless you have a healthy amount of numbers at your event. Truly don’t think many events can offer it without it being more costly overall.

[EventerAJ]

@Xanthoria

So this existed before? And the world did not devolve into a hunter-style shambles? Well well.

As I said, it fell by the wayside because there were not enough entries to justify it. That was before online entries, before online omnibus, when everything was paper and mail. The omnibus BOOK listed divisions offered, with the specific note on each page that “Divisions may be split or combined as entries warrant.” You mailed in your entry form usually with TWO preferred divisions marked, knowing that it was always possible your Restricted, Rider, Horse, or Junior division could be lumped into an Open division if there weren’t enough entries to support additional divisions. Organizers have to be flexible, and competitors too.

If you want to go even farther back, let’s talk about Graded horses and how they “pointed out” of levels and couldn’t go back down for any reason without special permission… that was not a great system.

[Xanthoria]

@LadyB

seems like a waste to me unless you have a healthy amount of numbers at your event. Truly don’t think many events can offer it without it being more costly overall.

But above as I said, a division split A and B could be green or not instead - same ribbons/cost. However, it sounds like it’s more about convenience for the event organizer and for the pros, in some cases too, vs the amateurs.

'it became easier to just have open divisions of equal size, instead of 10 open, 5 rider, and 6 horse entries, the Secretary can make two open divisions of 10 and 11 entries. Of course it would be ideal to divide based on competitive experience…but it becomes much more convenient to separate riders with multiple horses into different divisions, so there is adequate time between rides.

Competitively, you’d rather have Buck and his 3 horses, Jessica Phoenix with her 2 horses in the Open Training A division, while you are in OT B with other ammys. However, there may simply not be enough ring time to fit all of the multiple horses in the same division, and it would make life a lot easier to have Buck and Jessica’s horses split into the A and B divisions so they can have ample time between rides."

[ake987]

It seems like you’re assuming that a division split into A & B (let’s say 15 in each) has 15 green horses.

There is an additional cost to having three divisions (open, rider, horse) vs. two open, and it’s not just the ribbons. I’ve volunteered in all different capacities at all kinds of events, from jump judging CTs and schooling shows, XC controller at sanctioned events, to assistant organizer for a (former, no longer running) 2*. Nothing about any of those events was done with convenience for the organizer in mind. Also, that would really be for the secretary, but I digress.

The 5* pros aren’t the only pros needing time between horses. Many local pros where I am have multiple rides, while also coaching. If they aren’t accommodated, there won’t be an event to run because they won’t be able to compete their/their client horses, and they won’t bring their students.

I’ve honestly never given a second thought to competing against pros or people with more money and fancier horses, so it’s interesting to read this perspective. Seems like the minority, though.

[Janet]

@Xanthoria

But above as I said, a division split A and B could be green or not instead - same ribbons/cost. However, it sounds like it’s more about convenience for the event organizer and for the pros, in some cases too, vs the amateurs.

Actually, it is more about fairness.
If you have 40 entries at BN, it is fairer to split it into two sections of 20 each, than to split it into one section of 5 and another of 35. The riders in the 5-horse section have a much higher probability of getting a ribbon than the riders in the 35-horse section. That isn’t fair to the horses in the 35-horse section.

[lenapesadie]

Personally, I think dispensing extra ribbons for beginners (loose definition) is an excellent way to support and attract attendance. Positive reinforcement behavior modification and all that.

Seems like it would be easy enough to pin whatever entries fit the criteria without having them go in their own division.

For example, fell off green as grass horse in least amount of time or most whinnies produced on cross country or horse stopped for longest poop during dressage test. The list is endless. Make all the ribbons blue. Once your newbies are hooked, they then will continue to attend your events even when the rate of reinforcement has decreased (they no longer qualify for beginners only ribbons).

[ake987]

We have a Happiness Fairy at our local events who hands out goody bags to riders who have had bad days - usually a combination of mints for the pony, home baked goods and a nip of bourbon for the rider. I took a spill at an event this summer and wished I had the proper planning to do it at one with our lovely Happiness Fairy so I at least got something out of it!

[Willesdon]

If I got a ribbon for just turning up, or being the rider who travelled the greatest distance to compete, or owning a bay, I won’t value that ribbon at all. A meaningless gesture. A ribbon in a division running against a pro rider would mean achieving a result in some serious competition and therefore a ribbon I had earned.

Maybe those people who want ribbons for all should sponsor ribbons for everyone competing that day? I’m sure it would be good fun and very entertaining.

[endlessclimb]

@Jealoushe

If you truly wanted to be competitive in a competition you would train your butt off and put yourself up against the best of the best.

This is my current rub with the local schooling shows. I want to compete against better riders and horses, but can’t afford to show recognized. I’m hoping to make it to at least one recognized next year.

[lenapesadie]

I don’t think it’s practical to think “beginners” will be competitive in quality competition by and large. But science says that behaviors that are rewarded are more likely to be repeated.

All those baby divisions in the hunters might be why they can fill shows in my area and no one has been able to get an event to stick despite multiple attempts over the past twenty years. We certainly have had some solid attempts. Last place the water complex is now a wading pond for buffaloes.

I dunno. Nor do I know why some find the idea of a few extra ribbons for beginners to be so offensive. Granted I used some sarcastic examples, but surely some sort of “serious” criteria that didn’t require additional divisions could be devised. Pinned within existing divisions / splits or whatever would surely be less expense / work than extra rules for splits or an additional division? Certainly the ribbons themselves aren’t terribly expensive. Even the local yocal “open” shows have an extra ribbons they dispense for various reasons outside the class criteria.

[ClassyJumper]

This is slightly off topic but many of our (schooling) shows here literally don’t even communicate results. Like I don’t need a ribbon but give me my test! Or actually pin a h/j flat class! It’s hard to even compete against yourself when you get zero feedback. I am glad my husband likes to video so I can track progress that way but I find it frustrating. I really am not that competitive, but showing with zero feedback just feels like a lot of stress for what?

[endlessclimb]

You can’t go to the office and get your test? That’s what I do. Sometimes I have to wait around an hour or more because they’re short staffed, but I will wait. I want the paperwork, not the ribbons!

[ClassyJumper]

The last time I waited it was an hour and a half after I very slothly packed up. I guess my experiences as a kid were very different. 15 years ago and in the NE, ribbons were presented right after stadium, or during a flat class, or announced over the speakers. Trust me I rode feral ponies and quite often was leaving the ring empty handed but it still felt better then not knowing at all!

[endlessclimb]

Yikes, that is slow. They don’t announce the winners at my local schooling shows, but will post results on a big board outside the show office.

[Pennywell_Bay]

It would be unweildly in an event, and I am not sure how it would go since the only “objective’” result in eventing is dressage. But Hunters do a “California Split”, sometimes they do a “Casual Split”. Usually it is a class over 25. There is a “stagger” ranking of the top eight ribbons- so keeping a rank of 16 ribbon winners.

#1 and 2 are a stagger of which “division” or break up (A or B)
#3 and 4 stagger of second place in each “division” or break up

etc etc.

The break of “divisions” in a divsion or subset typically is random, but I have seen classes where the pros are in one group and everyone else is in the second. I don’t know if the rules specify if it is supposed to be totally random or not.

[Highflyer1]

It does take longer when xc is last (or at least feels that way because they typically score all of the level at the same time) but maybe ask if you can leave $5 and have your ribbon and test mailed if you can’t wait? That’s how we do it. (Or just take pictures of the test and email it free)

[Spudsmyguy]

Some of the comments about waiting for your test must be talking about one day events. Every 3 day I’ve been in announce the winners right after the last riders complete stadium and then they do a victory gallop.