Fit horse, still a bit ribby? - OP updated with pic, also post #48

[weixiao]

My gelding who is currently in a field until March always has some high ribs showing. He wasn’t a good eater when I got him, but we eventually figured out what he likes and he eats like a teenage boy and still never gets rid of the ribs. I thought he’d fill out as he got older but he’s 9 now so I think I was wrong.

I feel awkward sometimes at H/J shows with him sometimes because he definitely looks skinny in that context, but I actually think he’s a good weight. My trainer likes his weight, and my vet thinks it is perfect and always comments on how it bothers him that everyone looks at horses like that and think they are too skinny.

I wouldn’t worry about some ribs on a healthy, fit horse. (Or even sometimes on a healthy, unfit horse.) You know your horse and if you feel comfortable and like he’s in a good place then don’t let people convince you otherwise.

Clip him if he needs it, don’t clip him if he doesn’t.

[netg]

You can’t tell from this picture, but his ribs were visible.

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/q83/s720x720/1465230_10100189080932096_295209616_n.jpg

This is not a skinny horse.

Far less fit, similar amounts of body fat, and you can slightly see the ribs - I do think the ribs show a bit more when clipped, but it’s still totally acceptable. Some horses, they will just show.

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/q71/1455153_10100189462996436_637932962_n.jpg

[fordtraktor]

What’s he eating?

While I wouldn’t want him obese I wouldn’t be happy seeing ribs either. Those aren’t the only options. You might be able to add another 50 pounds on him, enough to smooth over the ribs, without making him fat as a tick or putting excess weight on the hoof angle.

[Flying_Hippotamus]

You don’t say what or how much he is eating. If his topline is poor than check the quality of your feed. Quality pasture or hay is best but sometimes that is harder to get. For topline development you need to add the right amino acids not just work. A horse with properly balance diet doesn’t need any work to get a wonderful topline. I don’t like to see any ribs on my horses. If he is getting the proper quantity and quality of feed and is still ribby then maybe he is working it off faster than you can put it on. But also check fecal - not just deworming.
As an aside if you blacksmith hasn’t been able to get some heel to grow and match the other foot then consider a pad so feet are balanced.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=purplnurpl;7303890]

I can guarantee that if a nutrition analysis was done on everyone’s horse’s daily feeding most of them would come up short. I notice this especially when I talk to my friends about what they feed their horses.
.[/QUOTE]

Depends on the person. My farm has a feeding program that was/is calculated by a nutritionist (not the feed store guy either).

We feed a balancer and very good quality hay (and lots of it)…plus most of my pastures were old alfafa fields (that presented a whole new lovely challenge). Most of the horses just need the balancer. A few of the harder working and harding keeping horses get a fat supplement and plain oats added. The oats are added to increase the calories with out over doing the additives coming from most fortified feeds (since they are already getting that with the balancer).

But I do have some horses who show their ribs more quickly…I find that making sure they are getting enough protien and fat to build muscle is key.

Only thing that bugs me is when feed guys tell you that their feed will put a top line on your horse…ugh. Proper work puts a nice top line on your horse…all the feed should be doing is making sure the horse has enough raw material to put that top line on…but the top line isn’t coming from the feed!!!

And yes…I’ve added amino acids for some of my horses who came to me and had no top line…but really haven’t had to do that since moving to the new farm with better pasture (I like the supplement Tri-amino)

[runNjump86]

[QUOTE=netg;7305476]
You can’t tell from this picture, but his ribs were visible.

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/q83/s720x720/1465230_10100189080932096_295209616_n.jpg

This is not a skinny horse.

Far less fit, similar amounts of body fat, and you can slightly see the ribs - I do think the ribs show a bit more when clipped, but it’s still totally acceptable. Some horses, they will just show.

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/q71/1455153_10100189462996436_637932962_n.jpg[/QUOTE]

This is pretty much EXACTLY what my guy looks like. Just a hint of ribs, no sharp points.

He is on 3lbs of basically CA’s version of Pennfield Fibergized, 1lb of Timothy pellets, and roughly 20-25lbs of bermuda a day. His topline isn’t exactly poor, but there is room for improvement. He had about a month and a half, almost two months off after scalping his knee, then pulling a shoe, me being gone, then being footsore.

I just switched farriers and he’s now in pads and his movement is MUCH better and he’s no longer footsore, so trails here we come! Pretty much all of the horses around us are fat…not chunky or fluffy…fat. He and my other horse stand out because they are actually at a healthy weight, but it does mess with my head sometimes.

[fordtraktor]

Why dont you raise his grain to 5 pounds a day and see what he looks like in a month or two? And maybe add another five pounds of hay if he will eat it without waste? Fibregized suggests 6 to 9 pounds for an average horse in medium work, not sure about CA’s version. But 3 pounds a day is not much grain for an event horse in active training. My TB eats that much TC Senior each meal and he isn’t in work at all. He isn’t fat either, but you can’t see ribs.

http://www.pennfieldequine.com/products_specialty_fibergized.php

Again, the goal is not to make him fat, just another 50 pounds maybe to make him bloom. FWIW, my horse looked like that after his letdown off the track: https://fordtraktor.shutterfly.com/pictures/25

But he looks a lot better with just a little more weight, not fat: https://fordtraktor.shutterfly.com/pictures/79

[Jeito]

The way the Henneke scoring system was explained to me is that you have to take into account all six areas and not just look at one. So a horse can show ribs and still be a 5 or even closer to a 6 (do the math, and you can see how that is possible). I can sometimes see ribs on my OTTB, depending on the day and the angle, no matter how fit she is. I admit I am prone to obsess about it. My retired hunter mare was a very easy keeper, always on the chunky side, and the Hanoverian I lease never shows ribs even when she loses weight and we have to up her feed. I think the poster who said you have to account for conformational differences is absolutely right.

fit upper level eventers.
none have ribs showing…

http://eventhorse.wordpress.com/2013...rse-look-like/

It think this is a little misleading. Here are pictures of the 2013 Rolex jog, and you can see lots of ribs:

http://useventing.com/news/2013-rolex-kentucky-first-horse-inspection

I personally have never heard a vet say that most owners keep their horses too skinny. To the contrary, every vet I know complains that many owners keep them too fat, and I’ve been assured multiple times that my young mare’s weight is just right for her. (Ha-ha, I’m a little defensive :lol:)

[yellowbritches]

I would bump his feed up a bit, too. That is not a lot of food for a big TB. Toby gets 4lbs of Fibergized when not in full work, and was getting 12lbs (split between three meals) when we were galloping the most this summer (I hated feeding that much, but he doesn’t love hay and went off his Cocosoya and losing those calories took its toll on his weight).

LIke I said, I do know there are some horses who show ribs far easier than others. I’ve cared for quite a few. But I do think a light covering is the best was for them to look, especially if they aren’t three day fit.

[netg]

[QUOTE=Discobold;7307105]
The way the Henneke scoring system was explained to me is that you have to take into account all six areas and not just look at one. So a horse can show ribs and still be a 5 or even closer to a 6 (do the math, and you can see how that is possible). I can sometimes see ribs on my OTTB, depending on the day and the angle, no matter how fit she is. I admit I am prone to obsess about it. My retired hunter mare was a very easy keeper, always on the chunky side, and the Hanoverian I lease never shows ribs even when she loses weight and we have to up her feed. I think the poster who said you have to account for conformational differences is absolutely right.

It think this is a little misleading. Here are pictures of the 2013 Rolex jog, and you can see lots of ribs:

http://useventing.com/news/2013-rolex-kentucky-first-horse-inspection

I personally have never heard a vet say that most owners keep their horses too skinny. To the contrary, every vet I know complains that many owners keep them too fat, and I’ve been assured multiple times that my young mare’s weight is just right for her. (Ha-ha, I’m a little defensive :lol:)[/QUOTE]

II just don’t think defensiveness is needed. If your vet thinks your horse is a good weight (and every vet who has seen my horse commented on his ideal weight) you are probably doing well. Your horse will tell you if it needs more fuel, as it’s possible to be just right in weight but too low in energy of some form, but that’s not about ribs - that’s about listening to your horse.

[billiebob]

A little bit of rib doesn’t bother me. I have a horse that’s difficult to keep weight on, and it’s just been in the last few months that he’s at what I consider an ideal weight for him.

Summer 2012 for reference. I was feeding him a bit of good quality sweet feed, TC Senior, rice bran, beet pulp, flax, and a joint supplement. Free choice hay, but he’s not really a big hay eater. Was in work 4-5x a week, mostly ring work and jumping with the occasional trail when I had time.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151939792095038&l=386d12e73b

Summer and fall 2013, after I moved out to SD. Horse likes to gallop around his huge pasture, tons of hills, and has great muscle tone. Ribs are still visible but you can’t look at this horse and think skinny. This is ideal for him IMO. He’s actually a little fatter right now, even with frigid temperatures. This is on about 3 lb. Purina Equine Senior and 1 lb. dry weight beet pulp, soaked twice a day. I’ve cut out the beet pulp until the weather warms up qnd upped his senior to 4 lbs. twice daily. You can see how much grass he had access to, and he’s got free choice grass hay now (but prefers digging through the snow to get the last little bits of grass…go figure).

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153174364680038&l=baa4f24bef

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153397871465038&l=a738ba8a50

[purplnurpl]

My gelding who is currently in a field until March always has some high ribs showing. .

high ribs means not enough protein.

Same thing with broodmares. So many people use the excuse “the kid is really sucking the life out of her”.

High ribs means need more protein.
Lower ribs usually means need more cals and needs to be dewormed.

[purplnurpl]

[QUOTE=Flying Hippotamus;7306178]
If his topline is poor than check the quality of your feed. Quality pasture or hay is best but sometimes that is harder to get. For topline development you need to add the right amino acids not just work. [/QUOTE]

Add a diet balancer (sometimes just a touch will do it if you already have other feed stuffs!)

and I can’t applaud Uckele’s Tri Amino enough. It’s super cheap and totally awesome!

[purplnurpl]

OMG my new TB eats me out of house and home. His metabolism is CRAZY.

He eats…you ready?

3x a day (plus free choice hay and pasture and some alfalfa)
1lb beet pulp measured dry (that’s almost a small bucket full when wet)
3 lbs of TC Complete
1.25 lbs Purina Amplify
1/4 cup of oil (just started this but will probably increase it to 1/3rd and then 1/2)

Tri-Amino
Smart Gut
Yucca

here he is just off the track. He’s actually quite ribby though you can’t really tell. Had some major ulcers coming off the track–
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/offtrack_zpsf801862b.jpg

And here he is now. Pretty good weight but because he goes off his feed during high stress I would like him to be fatter so that he’s has reserves.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p189/xckaboom/okiefat_zpsdfddf8c6.jpg

He’s a pleasure to body clip. ZERO boney points. Hips, shoulders and wither/back are super easy.

He’s expensive to feed to say the least. I’m hoping it’s because he’s 4 and he’s growing up as well as out. sheesh!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Purp–see if he will each soaked hay cubes. I’ve had that put more weight on them than the beet pulp.

I don’t have good conformation shots but here is my guy. First shot was after his let down from racing (so fall of last year) as a 4 year old. He was ribby and no muscle. Jumping shot was from this fall–so now 5. Took me a bit to get him that muscled up and to really bloom. But now if I had a conformation shot…you would not see ribs but you wouldn’t call him fat either. He is quite fit–gallops himself. I will not need to gallop him to go prelim…he is that naturally fit. Training level was a walk in the park ready to run again.

He doesn’t get a ton of grain either. Couple lbs of balancer, maybe a pound of oats and 1/2 pound of rice bran. But lots of good hay and good pasture.

[Carried_Away]

I just started the Tri-Amino with my new guy who needs to build muscle and a better topline, glad to see so many good reviews!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Carried Away;7310285]
I just started the Tri-Amino with my new guy who needs to build muscle and a better topline, glad to see so many good reviews![/QUOTE]

It is really a good product. I’ve had success with it on several horses.

[Flying_Hippotamus]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7306257]

Only thing that bugs me is when feed guys tell you that their feed will put a top line on your horse…ugh. Proper work puts a nice top line on your horse…all the feed should be doing is making sure the horse has enough raw material to put that top line on…but the top line isn’t coming from the feed!!![/QUOTE]

I used to think that. I have been going to a lot of feed lectures done by Progressive and my Vet. They now say you have to build the muscle with amino acids then work it from there. You can’t work a muscle that’s not there. Muscle tissue is made from protein which is made from amino acids and if the building blocks aren’t there it can’t be built. Just like body builders drink protein drinks. In fact progressive uses whey to add amino acids. I can’t explain the science more than this but it makes sense to me with just my BS in Biology.

To the OP - You are on the low end of the Fibregized label feeding recommendations for a 1000 to 1200 lb horse in moderate work is 6 to 9 lbs/day. So you have room to increase. Glad the farrier work is helping. Sometimes switching is the best thing to do.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Flying Hippotamus;7315238]
I used to think that. I have been going to a lot of feed lectures done by Progressive and my Vet. They now say you have to build the muscle with amino acids then work it from there. You can’t work a muscle that’s not there. Muscle tissue is made from protein which is made from amino acids and if the building blocks aren’t there it can’t be built. Just like body builders drink protein drinks. In fact progressive uses whey to add amino acids. I can’t explain the science more than this but it makes sense to me with just my BS in Biology.

To the OP - You are on the low end of the Fibregized label feeding recommendations for a 1000 to 1200 lb horse in moderate work is 6 to 9 lbs/day. So you have room to increase. Glad the farrier work is helping. Sometimes switching is the best thing to do.[/QUOTE]

I agree that they HAVE to have the building blocks…and amino acids are important, hence why I fed Tri Amino.

But that is NOT what makes the top line. Proper work when the horse has the right building blocks does. If you feed a couch potato the amino acids and protien and fat…they will get fat…and not always have a lovely looking top line.

I just watched as guys from progressive (and I feed their balanacer) would come in and tell some people that their horse needed this or that to build the top line. This was for horses who were OBESE…not just fat…but they were being working in a terrible inverted frame by their beginner riders…so were NOT developing an ideal top line…or were horses not even in work with less than ideal conformation. But their riders were looking for a fix to come out a bag…it doesn’t work like that.

You need BOTH (proper balanced feeding and proper work, especially for horses with slight conformational issues). So I take anything said by the feed guys with a VERY big grain of salt. What comes out of their mouth often is correct in science but not in application IME.

[Erin_Pittman]

[QUOTE=Flying Hippotamus;7315238]
You can’t work a muscle that’s not there. Muscle tissue is made from protein which is made from amino acids and if the building blocks aren’t there it can’t be built. [/QUOTE]

Absolutely, positively true. If the horse is lacking a topline, they can be both unfit AND need groceries (protein). The muscle mass that builds the topline has to come from somewhere and it’s not going to come from other tissues like fat or bone. Horses in work have a higher protein requirement than those that are idle for that very reason.

When I was at Univ. of MD, I was part of a study that looked at weight gain in Thoroughbred geldings. I had the unlucky responsibility of doing Body Condition Scoring on 16 Thoroughbred geldings every 2 weeks for the duration of the study. Surprise, surprise, it took us longer to get those horses to gain weight than we expected. They started out at a BCS average of about 3 (yes - thin) and by the end, they were around a 7. Some reached an 8, but most were 6-7. The thing that I found the most interesting was that they were all VERY different in how they gained weight. There was one in particular that would gain weight front-to-back. His neck would go up a score and sometimes two before his ribs, withers, etc., caught up and a couple were the opposite, one or two would have tons of fat on their ribs, but not on their neck or butt. These horses were all fed a diet of alfalfa/grass mix hay, a concentrate that I had designed that was either high in fat/fiber or high in sugar/starch; they were kept in 12x12 stalls. They were put on an exerciser for only 30 minutes per day to walk/trot. They all developed toplines with no ribs showing, but it was certainly not from exercise. One thing I learned to hate (but still find it essential) = body condition scoring. It was probably because I had to do it every two weeks and I’d second-guess myself every time and wonder if the horse had gained or lost. It wasn’t a “blind” trial, but I didn’t know before scoring if the horses had gained weight or not. There were two of us doing the scoring - me and Dr. Amy Burk and we were pretty close in our assessments. Two papers were published about it for those of you who are geeky enough to want to read them (my last name ws Petersen at the time):

1. Quinn, R.W., A.O. Burk, T.G. Hartsock, E.D. Petersen, N.C. Whitley, K.H. Treiber, and R.C. Boston. 2008. Insulin Sensitivity in Thoroughbred Geldings: Effect of Weight Gain, Diet, and Exercise on Insulin Sensitivity in Thoroughbred Geldings. J. Anim. Sci.: 28(12):728-38.

2.              Suagee, J.K., A.O. Burk, R.W. Quinn, E.D. Petersen, T.G. Hartsock and L.W. Douglass. 2008. Effects of Diet and Weight Gain on Body Condition Scoring in Thoroughbred Geldings. J. Eq. Vet. Sci: 28(3):156-66.