Fit horse, still a bit ribby? - OP updated with pic, also post #48

[bornfreenowexpensive]

But Erin part of the issue is not all natural “top lines” are the same. And that is where I see the pratical application issues. If a horse is being worked incorrectly…inverted…or has a physical issue…all the building blocks you give them will be put to the wrong use or not really go to building a better top line…

Yes if a horse is skinny…they need more of something. If they are body score of 3…they need more building blocks. But what I see happen is people take research like yours…and think that it is only about the food.

If you have a FAT horse…one who would score above 8…who still doesn’t have a great “top line”, you need to look at other factors. He could have a physical issue. Or, going around with his head up in the air and against the rider is causing him to devolp muscles in the wrong part of his body for a pretty top line.

This is where I find the message inconsistent from the feed store guys…they give the same message even when the horse is FAT (but perhaps has an upside down looking neck) and not a ribby fit horse like the OP described.

With the horse that I posted who I would say was a 3 maybe 4 when I got him, I did increase his protien (by alfafa cubes), supplemented with Tri Amino, and increased his calories until he put the weight and muscle on that I wanted.

But with an Obse horse…if their top line is not well develop, you need to look beyond what they are being feed…and look at how is this horse put together, how are they worked, and do they have some other physical issue.

[Flying_Hippotamus]

Just so we are all on the same page. This is what I am thinking of for top line evaluation.
http://www.prognutrition.com/pdf/TESInstructions.pdf

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Flying Hippotamus;7315510]
Just so we are all on the same page. This is what I am thinking of for top line evaluation.
http://www.prognutrition.com/pdf/TESInstructions.pdf[/QUOTE]

I’ve never liked their definition. I find it misleading. I prefer to focus on looking at the whole horse. I think this definintion can be read to include the whole horse but in practice I’ve seen it manipulated otherwise. (And note…I DO feed Progressive and find it a very good feed).

In other words, if your horse has a layer of fat over their ribs and hips, cresty pockets on their neck and tail head…and your vet saying they are fat…the fact that they are not well muscled over their back and withers like a top level dressage horse very well may not be from lack of building blocks in their diet

Yes…had a horse in the barn that fits that discription being told by feed store people they scored a B on that scale and needed the progressive top line supplement to give their horse a better top line. We were concerned he was going to founder…and he was hurting lame behind and in inconsistent work which is probably why the muscle wasn’t developing well across his back.

[cyberbay]

Purpl… can you define “high ribs” and “lower ribs”?

Is it that that: High ribs = ribs being visible above the curve of the ribcage and Lower ribs = ribs visible at/below curve of ribcage?

Txs!

[Erin_Pittman]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7315459]
But Erin part of the issue is not all natural “top lines” are the same. And that is where I see the pratical application issues. If a horse is being worked incorrectly…inverted…or has a physical issue…all the building blocks you give them will be put to the wrong use or not really go to building a better top line…[/QUOTE]

Whether it is muscle or fat, if there is a backbone visible, the tissue to surround it has to come from somewhere…which means it needs more food. Preferably, you want the tissue to be muscle, which means conditioning combined with more food (ideally, that would contain a high quality protein source). Otherwise, I’m not in disagreement. Exercise = muscle changes (increase numbers and strength of muscle fibers and in some cases different types of fibers; increased oxidative capacity, etc.), but if the muscle isn’t there to begin with, exercise won’t “build” a topline.

Edited to add: Take the horse I described in the previous post - the one that gained weight front to back. I SWEAR he could be a “7” in his neck and shoulder, but a 5 in the ribcage, along the topline and around the tailhead. His overall appearance would change if he had been put into work. He’d look stronger, fitter and more “toned” all over (especially in the neck and shoulder). A horse we currently have at our barn is one that I’ll try to take photos of: He’s an OTTB that is probably just now bordering on the “4/5” on the Henneke scale (he came in fairly thin). But I can still see his backbone. I can’t see the nubs of the spines, but it sticks up instead of being smooth over the top. He is definitely fit and doing good solid work on the bit, but needs more the way of nutrition so is still getting a fair amount of Fiberize and alfalfa hay to continue to build his body up. He’s a cribber and fairly finicky about food which has made it a long process. The fatter he gets the more feisty he gets (which might tempt others to cut down on his feed -for us, we’re increasing his turnout and his workload instead).

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Erin–the horse I was talking about would be a 7/8 in the Henneke scale. And yet I saw reps from the feed company say he needed more top line. It was really obnoxious. His back bone was sort of visible…but it had a layer of fat over it.

As opposed to some of the REALLY skinny OTTBs that I acquired last Christmas where you could see each bone in their back and each rib. Vet rated them as a 2 almost 1. I wasn’t sure they were going to make it. Both are doing great now. This is a shot of the grey mare. She is now nicely round. It was sick that she was allowed to get like that (raced for 7 years and 105 starts).

The chestnut is a picture of a very Fit horse who could use more top line. He is large and very hard to get and put weight on. This was at his first 2*. We have him looking better now but it takes a long time for him to put the muscle on…and you have to feed him a ton! The horses I’m talking about are not fit like this Chestnut…but have more than enough coverage over their back and more than enough to build muscle…but are flabby not muscular…you are not going to get a muscular top line out of a bag. And if they are depositing fat in one place not the other…I start to get them tested for things like Cushings or other metabolic conditions…as I would think they may not be absorbing and using what they are getting correctly.

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=purplnurpl;7310057]

He’s expensive to feed to say the least. I’m hoping it’s because he’s 4 and he’s growing up as well as out. sheesh![/QUOTE]

Don’t count on it. Mine is 15, with 16 on the horizon and he’s finally up to a decent (but not yet sufficient for my liking!) weight at 12-13 LB of Ultium per day, obviously spread out into multiple feedings. But, he’s a big boy. Free choice hay on top of that, and he’s turned out 24/7. I suspect the older he gets, the more he will eat…just 3 years ago, he was fat and happy on a couple quarts of cheapo sweet feed a day. I tried everything under the sun over the last year, but ultimately given his picky eater status and just how many calories he needs, Ultium is the best value for me, both in cost per calorie and calorie per pound. Eventually, once he reaches his goal weight, I’m hopeful that we can back it off.

To the OP: up his feed. At his level, he doesn’t need to look like a 4* horse, and he WILL need those extra calories if/when he moves up. I keep my horses on the leaner side, generally, but I still don’t like to see rips, especially not up high.

[runNjump86]

This is him.

I apologize, its not the best picture but it’s all I could do without help. He is SUPER fuzzy right now and not doing a whole lot of work. I’m getting him out and about, but as far as real WORK…not so much. I’m in a bit of “It’s winter (even in SoCal), I don’t have a show for a few months, and I’m burned out” funk so we’ve been taking it easy, going on trail rides, dinking around, and remembering that we really CAN do lateral work, lol.

I’m gearing up for January. He’s due for a body clip, and those trail rides are going to turn into trot/canter sets on hills to strengthen his hind end, which obviously needs to be built up. I posted another thread asking for conditioning/fitness advice if anyone wants to chime in over there!!

[fordtraktor]

Hard to tell much from that pic. He doesn’t look bad but I do think a few more pounds wouldn’t hurt him at all. I would definitely up his grain to the recommended amount and reevaluate in a few months.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Knowing SoCal…I would add more forage. He does look like he could use more probably protein. You really have to sit down and figure out the percentages of what he is getting but I typically would add Tri Amino (its cheap and easy) and add soaked alfafa cubes. If they still don’t look the way I want them, I would increase his calories more with his grain and a fat supplement. But he isn’t that thin so it may not be needed.

[purplnurpl]

[QUOTE=cyberbay;7315623]
Purpl… can you define “high ribs” and “lower ribs”?

Is it that that: High ribs = ribs being visible above the curve of the ribcage and Lower ribs = ribs visible at/below curve of ribcage?

Txs![/QUOTE]

Good weight all over except up high closer to the back. Suncken in. Most brood mares I see look like this.

You’ll see big fat bellies with ribs still showing if they need a good de worming.

[Flying_Hippotamus]

Agree with bornfree weight is not too bad. But top line needs help, indicating a need for a better balance of amino acids. I like the the progressive product http://www.prognutrition.com/toplineextreme.html but if there is something similar and easy for you to get use that.
I don’t know SoCal but made a quality forage a priority as well. It should be the bulk of their diet so it is the most important.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Did want to share this picture…skinny grey mare pictured in my post above, this is her taken a little less than 10 months later (early October off this year). Not a great shot…but shows how she is doing! Most of her weight was gained just by being on good pasture. (she is not in work and only fed about 1 lb of balancer pellets a day).

You can never discount good forage.

[runNjump86]

Ok thanks all. I agree the pic isn’t the best…I’m sorry.

SoCal hay is mostly Coastal Bermuda…definitely not the best, but I try and buy the best that I can. The other grass hay is Orchard and at $28/a bale (twice that of Bermuda) it would be a strain to add that to his diet. My hours at work have been cut and I’m trying to find full time without any luck.

BFNE - Alfalfa is around the same price as Bermuda and would be easier than the soaked cubes (DH feeds for me on occasion and it needs to be simple and quick). However, the end result SHOULD be the same, right? And I’ll scout out the Tri Amino. Could you please tell me what that does, I’ve never heard of it/never used it before.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=runNjump86;7319101]
Ok thanks all. I agree the pic isn’t the best…I’m sorry.

SoCal hay is mostly Coastal Bermuda…definitely not the best, but I try and buy the best that I can. The other grass hay is Orchard and at $28/a bale (twice that of Bermuda) it would be a strain to add that to his diet. My hours at work have been cut and I’m trying to find full time without any luck.

BFNE - Alfalfa is around the same price as Bermuda and would be easier than the soaked cubes (DH feeds for me on occasion and it needs to be simple and quick). However, the end result SHOULD be the same, right? And I’ll scout out the Tri Amino. Could you please tell me what that does, I’ve never heard of it/never used it before.[/QUOTE]

I use soaked hay cubes because it is generally cheaper. It’s pretty easy, if it isn’t too hot, you just set it in a bucket with water. They can soak for as little as 5 minutes to as much as 12 hours. But If it is hot, I don’t like them to sit soaking in the heat for very long.

That said, yes, regular alfalfa hay would have the same effect. I just find it more expensive to get than the cubes but in your location maybe it is not.

This is Tri Amino–it is a supplement to add in more amino acids into their diet–this is the building block of muscles.

http://www.smartpakequine.com/triamino-8489p

I have used it especially when I had my horse boarded out. If their weight is generally ok, but they just are not building up the muscle like I want, I’ve found adding this helped. But you do need to be giving them enough calories as well.

[Jeito]

I’m not the OP but wanted to give an update on my mare.This is what I wrote before:

[QUOTE=TemJeito;7307105]
I can sometimes see ribs on my OTTB, depending on the day and the angle, no matter how fit she is. I admit I am prone to obsess about it. My retired hunter mare was a very easy keeper, always on the chunky side, and the Hanoverian I lease never shows ribs even when she loses weight and we have to up her feed.[/QUOTE]

After reading some of the other responses, I decided to try a couple of new things. My 9 y/o 15.3 hand OTTB mare was getting: free choice hay, 2 1/2 pounds of Sentinel Performance 2X a day, and 4 ounces of Cocosoya 1X a day. On Dec. 15th, I added beet pulp. I’m not sure the quantity, but it’s what all the horses at the barn that are on beet pulp are getting. A couple of days later, I added 1 pound of Senior 2X a day. In the meantime, the vet was out for something else, and did a physical and took blood. Everything was perfect. I didn’t see my mare for a week because of the holidays (I board almost an hour away from home), and when I took the blanket off yesterday I couldn’t believe how fat she is. I’ve never seen her gain weight this quickly in the 4 years I’ve had her. I am guessing the beet pulp is what really gives her that “round” look. Frankly, I don’t believe she’s any healthier or fitter, but I also don’t see a downside to the extra weight

[Jeito]

I’m not the OP but wanted to give an update on my mare.This is what I wrote before:

[QUOTE=TemJeito;7307105]
I can sometimes see ribs on my OTTB, depending on the day and the angle, no matter how fit she is. I admit I am prone to obsess about it. My retired hunter mare was a very easy keeper, always on the chunky side, and the Hanoverian I lease never shows ribs even when she loses weight and we have to up her feed.[/QUOTE]

After reading some of the other responses, I decided to try a couple of new things. My 9 y/o 15.3 hand OTTB mare was getting: free choice hay, 2 1/2 pounds of Sentinel Performance 2X a day, and 4 ounces of Cocosoya 1X a day. On Dec. 15th, I added beet pulp. I’m not sure the quantity, but it’s what all the horses at the barn that are on beet pulp are getting. A couple of days later, I added 1 pound of Senior 2X a day. In the meantime, the vet was out for something else, and did a physical and took blood. Everything was perfect. I didn’t see my mare for a week because of the holidays (I board almost an hour away from home), and when I took the blanket off yesterday I couldn’t believe how fat she is. I’ve never seen her gain weight this quickly in the 4 years I’ve had her. I am guessing the beet pulp is what really gives her that “round” look. Frankly, I don’t believe she’s any healthier or fitter, but I also don’t see a downside to the extra weight

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=TemJeito;7337536]
I’m not the OP but wanted to give an update on my mare.This is what I wrote before:

After reading some of the other responses, I decided to try a couple of new things. My 9 y/o 15.3 hand OTTB mare was getting: free choice hay, 2 1/2 pounds of Sentinel Performance 2X a day, and 4 ounces of Cocosoya 1X a day. On Dec. 15th, I added beet pulp. I’m not sure the quantity, but it’s what all the horses at the barn that are on beet pulp are getting. A couple of days later, I added 1 pound of Senior 2X a day. In the meantime, the vet was out for something else, and did a physical and took blood. Everything was perfect. I didn’t see my mare for a week because of the holidays (I board almost an hour away from home), and when I took the blanket off yesterday I couldn’t believe how fat she is. I’ve never seen her gain weight this quickly in the 4 years I’ve had her. I am guessing the beet pulp is what really gives her that “round” look. Frankly, I don’t believe she’s any healthier or fitter, but I also don’t see a downside to the extra weight :)[/QUOTE]

Ask your vet if there’s a downside to the extra weight. :eek: I really don’t understand why people want fat animals for cosmetic purposes when health professionals urge trimness. When my dog was at a weight that pleased my vet, I had a hoard of the dog version of COTH constantly suggesting ways to fatten him up. It doesn’t matter what people on here think about how your horse looks. It matters what his doctor says.

[cindywilson]

runNjump–I’m on the CA central coast where it does get a little colder than SoCal. Am keeping 2 27-year-olds and a 23-year-old fat (and therefore warm) on alfalfa only (oh, and the baby–12 years old), at $18/bale for top quality. And a scoop of senior feed daily. Most of the OTTBs I get have been fed alfalfa and basically think anything else is bedding. I’ll cut them back when it’s warmer, but right now they need the insulation. Check his teeth.

[runNjump86]

His teeth were just done. And there is no way this horse would be close to sane on ONLY alfalfa. He eats almost everything I put in front of him; he doesn’t waste hay unless it blows out of his corral.

I’m going to be adding alfalfa to his diet and also the Tri-Amino. I’m going to leave the amount of Senior he’s getting the same so I can tell if the Alf and TA do it alone. If not, then I’ll play around with the amounts.