Fixing nose position

Your horse is working behind the vertical. He is making you THINK you have contact, but it is not true contact. Read the following article, please.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹[URL=“https://www.yourhorse.co.uk/advice/improve-your-riding/articles/is-my-horse-working-behind-the-vertical”]https://www.yourhorse.co.uk/advice/improve-your-riding/articles/is-my-horse-working-behind-the-vertical

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹"When your horse is behind the vertical, it means that his nose is too close to his chest and there’s too much pressure across his poll.

It usually happens when your horse becomes too strong in your hand and as a result, you keep a tight rein."

He is asking you to hold him up. Push him forward INTO your hand. More leg, less hand. Don’t oblige him by letting him hang on your hands.

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My trainer says to offer the hand and push him into the contact. I was hoping for some other opinoins and advice, maybe even exercises. She agrees with me that he is not evading the bit.

I do haul to lessons. Almost 70 miles. I lesson in a dressage arena.

I do appreciate the advice. But I’ve done all the work on this horse for 7 years and it hurts when people assume he is green or I’m incompetent. Some horses just have quirks that have to be worked around.

OP pointing out problems doesn’t mean we think you are incompetent. We all have gotten that horse who makes us rethink how we ride. My current horse is one of them for me. Also, your horse IS green to contact. That’s okay. It’s not a slight on you or the work you have done with him. I linked a thread here that may help you.

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Eh. I’m going to push back on this one. The difference between contact and no contact is less than an inch. If you are riding a reactive horse in a pasture I completely understand that it does not make sense to go around on the buckle. However, you can find contact and then slip the reins just an inch beyond where he takes the contact. This puts him on a “loose rein” but if stuff hits the fan all you have to do is bring your elbows back an inch to re-establish contact.

I don’t have an indoor or a “fancy set up” and just got a new ride who was a pretty nerve-wracking hell on wheels if her face wasn’t held to some degree. A lot of that hell on wheels attitude was because she’d always had contact as a brace and brake. We spent the first two months learning how to go around W/T/C without touching the bit and there were plenty of hairy moments. A one rein stop was deployed more than once as we skittered around at Mach 10. I have no arena walls and hot wire just a few feet from my ring boundaries so I get making do with what you have and not wanting to end up in a sticky situation. If you choose to ride him through it and get to a point where you can safely ride at all three gaits with that tiny gap in the reins you’ll also figure out how to use your core to get the start of a half halt even without any reins. Once you can get that response to your body and steering without the reins I’d bet money he will start connecting with your hand in a more authentic manner and most if not all of your curling issues will be resolved.

If you want, I’d even be willing to share some of our super unflattering progress videos via PM.

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Does he feel “heavy” in your hand? My gelding loved to lean on me and occasionally get btv. The best thing was to lift one hand to break the lean (and bring him above vertical) and lots of leg.

If your horse is ducking behind the vertical, you do have an issue in the connection. It’s a symptom of lack of push from behind and lack of strength. He is likely not in front of the aids and needs to be ridden in front of the leg vs faster.

Behind the vertical is often harder to fix than above the bit, it involves a lot of tact and core strength to ride the neck away from you.

I would also say that if you can never ride your horse on a loose rein (stretch should not be on a loose rein) without fear of bolting, that is a serious training issue, which is likely also a symptom of not really accepting the contact.

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I understand where you are coming from. You are taking it way too personally and I understand that too.

No one here wants to hurt your feelings and no one here wants to put you down.

That is quite an accomplishment to bring along a young horse and I totally admire your commitment. That’s quite a long drive for a lesson.

Please read Beowolfs last post again . It explained it much better than I.

I was approaching it from a more philosophical point.

Riders can and do school their horses up the level s without knowing any more dressage theory than “Outside Leg to Inside Rein”

But unless you can really understand the principles. The “why” , it really doesn’t help you.

Your trainer agreed with you that it wasnt an evasion
I respectfully disagree with your trainer.
Your trainer told you to push the horse into contact, but it hasn’t helped you.

You are going to have to look to yourself and ask the hard questions " what I am doing to cause this?"

If you have a defensive position in the saddle and pump on the gas and hit the brakes at the same time you are going to create a defensive horse that curls behind and then runs because you’ve loosened the reins. He really doesn’t know what he’s supposed to do.

Take a deep breath and slow down. This isn’t a contest and you dont get a medal for moving up the levels the fastest.

Go back and look at the training level test directives.
The judge isn’t just looking at the rider and horses movements , the judge is looking at the movements in context with the directives.

I say training level, because I honestly dont think that you and your horse are ready for first level.

I am not attempting to throw shade on you or belittle your abilities.

I responded because I thought I could give you some advice and some insight.

If you choose not to act on it, it’s okay with me.

It’s been my experience that most of the contact and connection problems arise from the incorrect position of the rider.

Good luck.

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If you can’t give the rein an inch to ride on no contact, because it doesn’t feel safe, then you and the horse are in a mutually reinforcing circle that makes developing correct contact impossible. You can only develop correct contact or indeed do any training if both horse and rider feel relaxed and safe. A huge part of dressage is instilling forward that is big am generous but safe. Many riders fail this part because they don’t feel safe letting the horse open up.

OP also mentions that the horse dives and falls on the forehand and runs off. This can be connected to rolling behind the vertical which is often related to falling on the forehand. The horse cannot carry himself in front yet.

OP has been riding this horse for 7 years but as I said in a previous post, first level tests are where you get alerted to the training holes that will stop you from making progress in future. The comments about his nose are not about making a pretty picture. Especially with the other information here they make it pretty clear that the horse isn’t accepting contact and isn’t in self carriage.

The first step has to be relaxation and stretching to the bit. If you can’t ride in a relaxed way in one area you need to remedy that. You also need to work on not being so handy. Easier said than done when a horse feels reactive. But being handsy can make a horse reactive.

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This was our first time at first level. We’ve been at training level for 3 years. Trust me, we’re not racing up the level. Forgive me for ignoring that bit.

I won’t deny a defensive seat, I’ve spent way too much time on rank and green horses. There’s something to be said for occasionally riding a safe horse lol.

OP, is this post from two years ago the same horse? If so, there are lots of comments on the thread especially after the video on the second page.

If it isn’t the same horse you might still consider what you are doing in the saddle to create the same issues.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/dressage/10302863-in-front-of-the-leg-without-losing-the-push

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Same horse. Different circumstances. This issue was “diagnosed” as my never having ridden a broke horse before. He was always reactive off the leg to the point of being unrideble, but at this point he was beginning to accept my leg and I didn’t know what it felt like. I’d never been able to keep my leg on before or honestly even use my leg. I would post a video to compare but my ego is already injured enough.

Very interesting then. He is already rolling behind the vertical there. Two years ago he is sucked back which is an evasion and one that goes along with BTV. I went to look at your profile just because quite often here and IRL either have similar issues with different horses or have the same issue or constellation of issues with the same horse that manifest themselves in related ways over the years.

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How is he about trotting poles? Have you tried working on the stretch trot with poles to keep him focused/forward thinking?

What are the scores you are getting for his stretch? Is it a “7” with a BTV comment, or a “5”?

Does he immediately tuck btv, or does he start with a better stretch and then duck under? It might be a strength thing.

Depends on the day. He’s very stressed out at shows still, but we average 6-7 on stretches even with the btv comments. Obviously when I can’t get a controlled stretch it’s not a pretty comment. He starts nice, for about ~10 steps, before falling back btv.

Taken word for word from my most recent tests:

First 1
Free walk: 6 needs stretch and ground cover, looky at R
Stretchy trot: 6 tempo quickens, tends to curl rather than stretc
overall score 65.76

First 2
Free walk: 7 no comment
Stretchy trot: 4.5 spooked at B, curls rather than stretches
Overall score: 63.45

Do you practice stretchy trot?

Yes. But it’s our weakness at shows - it’s so much harder to keep him focused due to the environment. It’s on the list of things to fix 😬 but the btv part is the most important I think.

If it’s the same horse in the video, just wanted to say he’s a nice mover.

From watching the video I think part of your problem stems from your saddle.

If you are still trying to ride a dressage test in a jump saddle my hat is off to you.

That saddle is putting you in a chair seat and you are doing a h/j post. It appears in the video that you a bit out of sync.

It is true that you dont have to have a dressage saddle in the lower levels but I am telling you that if you want to move up you want a saddle that you can sit deep in and allows your leg to drape along the horses sides.

A jump saddle is never going to work.

If you did get a dressage saddle then nevermind.

OP, the best thing that you can do for yourself and your horse is

  1. Take lunge lessons. If your horse isn’t safe to do lunge lessons on then beg borrow or steal one that you can.
    If I was your trainer I’d take away your reins and stirrups until I saw that you had a truly independent seat .
    . Fun fact the Spanish Riding School puts its riders on the lunge line.
  2. Dont try to school your horse when you are riding in the pasture.
    ”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹ . I didn’t say dont ride. Just dont try to school , do a trail ride sort of thing . Do some interval training and forget about putting him in a frame , just concentrate on letting him move out.
  3. Do some homework and watch videos of riders lower level as well as upper. There is something to be learned from both.

And last thing dont be discouraged. Dressage is a lifetime journey.

Now, I will also say that if you are just interested in a quick fix, I don’t have the answer for that.
if you arent interested in learning dressage theory that’s okay too.

After all, you dont know me and I’m not a dressage instructor or anything like it, I’m just an aging never -was and the highest level test I ever showed in was intro level B.

But I love the whole process and if I can help someone along the way that is even better.

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Thank you for this post! Very helpful. He’s nothing special, but I love him to death! It’s amazed me how much fancier he’s gotten as I’ve ridden him more correctly.

We’re still in a jump sale unfortunately. No chance of getting out anytime soon, I’m in college. Neither he nor I has upper level skill or talent so I’m not too concerned. Just trying to do what I can with what I have.

Believe me , I hear you.

Maybe you can borrow a saddle. Your trainer may be able to help you with that.

( if it sounds like I keep riding my hobby horse because I keep talking about rider position it’s because as far as I’m concerned it is the foundation for all dressage work. )

Here’s a challenge for you.
Drop your stirrups, tie your reins in a knot and see if you can complete a 20 meter circle using only your legs and seat. Hold your arms hands and shoulders as if you are holding the reins. Think about keeping your sternum up. Just at a walk. But a working walk.

if he gets all wonky and steps in or out of the track dont grab at the reins. use your legs and seat. And dont stop.

Do it in a lesson , if you are still able to ride. (Dont know if your barn is still open for lessons or not. )

If you can do it at the walk, then try it in a trot.

This is a good confidence building exercise for both of you.

Good luck and Good night.