Fixing nose position

AnastasiaBeaverhousen I presume you mean inside leg to outside rein.

OP I have not seen the video but from comments about hunter seat and riding in a jumping saddle then it will be very difficult for you to get him off his forehand.

You said your instructor said to offer your hand and push him into the contact.

Follow this advice. You have paid for it. They are seeing you in person. Do not bring the rein back to him. Offer the rein forward and ride him to the rein.

As in my original post to bring the head up in sitting trot it is your stomach muscles that raise the poll. For this you will need the correct position, which other have said is incorrect, as you are riding with a hunter seat.

In rising trot it is more inside leg and forward forward forward. Which means you can not be thinking of going slower, because of horses he may react to or ground that has holes, dips etc.

You need the confidence in him to send him forward. He needs confidence in you to go forward.

Also make sure you are looking up at the horizon. Look down at his head and he will lower. Lift your head and look up and he should come up more.

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Thanks for the correction. I’m a lefty and I get everything ass backward.

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My guy does this. He “rolls over” his shoulders if I try to just push him up with the classic “legs fix everything” advice.
Try this.
Take contact and ride forward in whatever frame is appropriate for his level of training and conformation. Keep your leg on as you SLOOOWWWWLY let out the reins BY LENGTHENING YOUR ARMS - not by lengthening the rein. He should follow it (you say he does). Only go as far as he maintains contact. Only go so far as he continues to use his haunches and does not drop his back. (and as someone who owns an apple-butt Iberian, just having muscles does not mean he is using his haunches properly…) Don’t send him so low that he drops BTV. Be sure to keep your leg on and your core engaged to keep him working properly. Then slowly bring him back up USING YOUR CORE AND LEGS - not the reins - and reestablish your correct arm position and (your)back engagement as he comes SLOWLY up. Don’t let him come up so fast that he drops the contact.
Repeat as much as it takes. Remember that long and low is a reward, not a way of life. Remember that in a dressage test, the poll only needs to be level with the withers during free walk (which is NOT on a loose rein) or stretchy trot.

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The photos will be very important here, in order for people to help you best.

Maybe it would be helpful if you understood that every single advanced rider has had to go back and fill in some blanks with every single horse they have ever trained. Nobody gets to go through this on a straight upward trajectory. No one.

Your particular challenge is one of the most difficult to overcome. There are so many factors that can contribute. It can take a long time to weed through the various potential roots of the problem.

I wonder if he does this over raise Cavaletti at a trot? That has been one of the best solutions I have found for curling up. They can help the horse change a habitual posture, left their back, and push into the bit. The Klimke book is excellent.

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Ok, here’s an image. The best one I’ve got atm. https://imgur.com/a/YMXPkTK I acknowledge his poll is not as high as it should be here but I can’t find anything else on this computer.

Ok based off the moment in time :slight_smile:

You need to sit up straight not tipped forward and get a bend in your elbows. Straight elbows and hands in your crotch mean you cannot give on the reins when needed. If you are not carrying your own torso and arms the horse will not carry his own front end.

I realize you are in a jump saddle but it is perfectly possible to lengthen the stirrups a little and sit up and into the saddle.

Sit up straight, carry your own torso and hands, have your elbows at your sides.

He also needs more impulsion. His hind legs aren’t even tracking up. Sit in and ride him forward.

I see that he is BTV even with a slight drape to the reins. That is about avoiding contact.

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For decades I mostly rode in a double-jointed snaffle, and most of the horses went fine.

Then I got put up on a horse at my lesson barn who DID NOT LIKE double-jointed snaffles, he fretted, he fussed, he refused to “meet” the bit and I could not get decent contact on him.I felt like I had learned nothing about riding horses during the 50 years I’ve ridden even though my riding teacher always tells me my hands are good. I tried various bits including a Mullen mouth snaffle, he just did not like them.

Then we changed to a single-jointed snaffle and the problems mostly disappeared. That horse just DID NOT LIKE bits that moved a lot in his mouth, and with a single-jointed snaffle he listened a lot better to me.

Later I read in a book, “On Seats and Saddles; Bits and Bitting” by Francis Dwyer, that the author (cavalry, hundreds of horses in his command) that he thought that the double-jointed bits acted like a twitch around the lower jaw. After I read this I thought back on my rides with double-jointed snaffles and how my riding teacher always got after me for keeping my hands far apart. I just told her that the horses wanted my hands wide, otherwise they would suck back and refuse to meet the bit correctly.

If you want to test this try riding with your hands around a foot apart. If he is in a double-jointed snaffle and improves when you widen your hands then try him out in a single-jointed snaffle. It may take a few rides for him to get used to the single-jointed snaffle. Your horse WILL tell you what he prefers, just like now he is telling you that he finds something not quite right about contact right now.

I also admire your determination to get a proper riding education. I also had to do lots and lots of riding in pastures with other horses who were grazing with my first horse.

Yes that is working towards a broken necked horse, as you can see his muscling is not correct as he is not working under from behind. He is breaking at the incorrect vertebrae instead of the poll at the highest.

I have never ridden a horse in a double jointed bit so I really aporeciate learning from your post Jackie.

So as above sit up straight, not just on the horse, when walking, sitting and driving in the car.

Roll your shoulders backwards separately to relax and get your shoulders back.

Look up at the horizon.

just think sit on your butt and lift your hands. There should be a straight line from your elbow to the bit.

Lengthen your stirrups. You have to earn your long stirrups, you can’t just put them right down.

As someone else said get lunged without reins and stirrups. Your stirrups will feel so short after that.

Hang in there. I know it’s tough not to take advice personally, totally been there. That said I bought a young horse with a similar issue but very green so worst in the walk, some in the trot and honestly just not strong enough in the canter at the time to even consider what his head was doing. I think teaching a horse to actively take the contact when they tend to be backed off is one of the hardest things to train and I think many trainers out there are not good at this. There are lots of people out there riding behind the vertical and it’s probably because their trainers don’t teach them better. Your trainer may never have had to undo this particular issue is she’s been lucky.

In terms of fixing it what worked for my horse was this. In the very beginning we treated the rein as side reins. You set a rein length where you want them to roughly be and you stick with it and keep your hands a little wide and super steady and all connection has to come from the leg and driving aids. There are many moments when your horse will not be together but when they actually moves forward and into the contact and finds you it will be a steady rewarding contact that they learn to like. Continue other exercises like circles and transitions while doing that. The moment I knew this had worked was when I accidentally dropped my reins while adjusting my glove and he just dove straight down and out to find me and and the contact again. It’s ugly and slow going and you probably wont be doing much fancy stuff like lateral work at this stage but it’s necessary to correct the hole people are talking about.

Once you feel like he is consistently finding your hand and staying there, then you can start adding all those tools you probably use now like half halts and lateral work and creating bend. It’s a little weird honestly doing stuff with your hands after doing nothing for months, but by then they are ready for it and will actually ponder the question when you make a rein aid rather than just backing off and hiding which is sounds like is what happens now.

This is also maybe an unorthodox suggestion, but if you are really feeling unsafe closing your leg on and going maybe doing 1-2 lessons with side reins on would be helpful. It sounds like they do this safely in kids lessons in Europe and might give your horse a feel of steady contact but also limiting the risk of him blowing up and you wanting to snatch the rein back (we all do this when a horse blows up, it’s human nature, mine is also spooky). If other people think this is a terrible idea feel free to chime in and say so, just putting it out there.

You don’t ride in sidereins as there are different signals to the bit at the same time. You can be lunged in side reins, but attach the reins to the side rings on the lunging casson, not to the bit.

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I’d never done it, but it sounds like it’s pretty standard in up down lessons in Europe where kids can’t keep a horse together. How would it be any different than someone riding with draw reins or a double bridle? (don’t think either of those would help the OP, but just a comparison where you also have 2 signals going at the same time).

OP I’m glad you are still coming back.
Another useful contact hack is to get you a jumper bat, or a short whip and put it in your hands as you ride with the reins in your fingers the usual way.

If its thin enough it won’t interfere with holding the reins
This is useful because it is an immediate tell if you are trying to be too handsy, or turn your wrists, or put your hands too low.

It will also make you aware if you twist your shoulders.

This is a Pony Club thing, I believe but I saw a lot of eventers doing this too.

There is also a device called the Equi Cube IIRC that is also supposed to help with learning contact.
I’ve seen a couple of threads about this and some riders swear by them. I dont know anyone who had used it so I cant tell if it is useful or not.

To me dressage is the art of correcting correctly and I believe if you incorporate the good ideas you’ve been given you will see a difference in how you ride and how your horse responds to the changes you are making.

I have never been to Germany.

You are saying up down lessons so I would say they are not turning the horse. As I said you can lunge a rider on a horse in side reins. If you have a schooled enough horse/pony this could also mean around the arena, but the instructor is in control of the horse with a look, voice and lunge whip. The up down rider is not in control of themself or the equine.

I agree. Whatever the pros and cons of putting small children on very well schooled horses in side reins, that is totally different from trying to school a green horse by riding with side reins, especially with a rider who is just trying to figure out dressage.

The OP has a problem with the horse ducking behind the bit. I don’t think riding in side reins is going to be the thing to fix it.

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After reading the suggestions given to you, I really agree with those that have suggested going back to basics and also working on your own equitation. In the past, my own Dressage horse actually had a very similar issue to yours, plus the added frustrations of gaping when he got stressed or just didn’t want to work anymore! At the time we were schooling second level and showing first with decent marks in the high 60s- low 70s. It was always something I had intended to fix, but like you I had reservations about taking the time to go back to basics.

I can’t remember who here mentioned it, but I agree that many trainers do not know how to solve this issue or mabye they just realize the complexity of it and try to modify things instead. Unfortunately, there is no quick fix for a horse that avoids the bit by going BTV consistently.

At the time, I was working with two instructors, both of which were riding at the Grand Prix level. Whilst their help had managed to get us far and my horse appeared to have decent contact at shows, he continued to return BTV at some point. I had tried the following methods to correct BTV: riding more forward and giving my hands for him to come into, keeping contact when he fell behind and ultimately having my Grand Prix coach ride him for 2 weeks. Sometimes, I’d think I was getting a change, but all of these were just patch work over a hole that would just reappear again later.

What did work was the summer where I ultimately decided to take 3 months off of regular riding to return to basics. I started on the ground by teaching him how to move into the bit, then I moved up to a walk, then trot and canter. When corrected, the contact felt similar, but not the same as before. I had a good bit of weight in my hand, but it was by no means heavy. The true difference was in the back. I could actually feel his back lifted, like he was suddenly broader.

At the walk, I used the same concept I had taught on the ground. I’d encourage hind end engagement with seat and leg and allow him to move into the bit. If he dropped behind again, I’d lift my hands completely upwards and then lower them as he took the bit and lowered his head. AT first, he would only keep true contact for a few seconds and I’d end the ride there to really let the concept sink in. I’d slowly increase the duration to which he kept contact with the bit. We worked on the walk probably for about a month. The main aim was to have him take the bit forward and down (long and low) himself. We’d do leg yields, shoulder in, travers and other lateral movements with longer contact. I wasn’t expecting a completely correct movement, but rather him to relax into the movement. During this time, I also had the time to refine these movements and he eventually did them when my seat and body were in the correct position.

When I was confident that he could hold contact himself and I could correct BTV by lifting him up quickly, then I started to add a few strides of trot here and there. This is where I’d see him come up above the bit when he could not longer hold contact. It was important that I allowed this and continue to hold an elastic contact until he came down again. If I didn’t do so, he probably wouldn’t have trusted the bit any further. I did not go completely into the trot until he had become comfortable holding contact with the few strides I was building on. The same process was repeated for the canter.

Once you add speed, It does become more apparent that the horse’s muscles for a correct frame are weak. Because of this, I did incorporate somewhat of a conditioning plan, which mainly included hill work on hacks. When they become accustomed to going BTV, they gain counter productive muscles (such as under the neck) and do not build the correct muscles much. My goal here was to try and help build those muscles without having to do so in schooling. This is also the reason I worked mostly in a long-low frame because I was building the correct muscles, encouraging relaxation and not risking the tension, which would continue to build the wrong muscles.

Now, he was going brilliantly in a longer frame and slightly in front of the vertical. I was able to change between any gait, lateral movement etc without having to even ask for him to frame up, although I did focus on his fundamentals of straightness, rhythm etc. He now saw the as a positive thing and continuously searched for the bit. From there, I had to start bringing him up into a shorter frame, which I did slowly. I’d bring him up for maybe a stride or two at first, then let him stretch again. Any time he’s show tension in this process, I’d let him stretch out and relax again.

By the end of it, I had a very well trained horse that searched for contact with no gaping issues.Rides became super easy and fun. We could accomplish more things in half the time it used to take us.

Bottom line is that there really are no shortcuts when it comes to addressing BTV, at least not if it is a consistent issue over time. Now, if it is not a training issue, then it COULD be a physical issue, such as saddle fit. BUT going back to the basics can actually be very rewarding and you can learn a lot from it.

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The photo really helps. Your position is working against you. Drop your stirrups (if safe). Sit towards the front of the saddle (hard in a forward seat saddle…). Put your shoulders over your hips (you will feel as if you are leaning back. You aren’t.) Connect your elbows to your hips, elbows should be fractionally in front of hip bones, elbows bent. - your upper arm hangs vertically. Think of your arms from elbow to hand as being a continuation of the reins. Shoulder blades down and back but don’t arch your back. Pelvis straight up and down - dont sit on your tailbone and don’t roll forward onto your pubis. This will give you a slight tuck (SLIGHT) and slightly flatten your lower back. Feel as if you are riding into your knees. Chin up, chest up.
To use your seat, accentuate the tuck of your pelvis or fractionally move shoulders back.
To use your reins, pull your shoulder blades back and strengthen your back and core. This might move your elbows back. Your reins should be short enough that they dont go behind your body. Your hands ride just above the pommel or if your arms are long slightly in front of the saddle - not down by your knee. DO NOT drop your hands or pull the reins down.

start here.

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Not only that but a horse that is being ridden in a paddock and reacting to other horses loose in there as well.

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Something that I noticed watching the first video in the old thread is that the two horses in the periphery appear BTV with their riders pulling their faces off. If they’re all with the same trainer it would seem that the trainer has an incomplete understanding of what is supposed to be going on in a low level dressage test or there’s some disconnect to their finding the correct language to articulate the concepts. It matters in dressage. I wish we could all agree to toss the oft uttered phrase “bring your hand back to your hip,” onto the garbage heap of outdated stuff trainers say, for example. Not because it’s wrong, per se, but because it’s vague and incomplete. And most riders diligently comply by bringing their hand DOWN and then back.

OP, find someone to borrow a dressage saddle from. Even if it’s just for a lesson or two. You’re a lovely rider. I wish my lower leg stayed that still. You’re fighting to maintain position in your jumping saddle and it’s causing all sorts of dysfunctional biomechanics for you and the horse. I suspect that he’d stop just fine for you if you had a saddle that allowed you to actually sit down and back. Your pelvis has an anterior tilt from the saddle seat and you can’t help but tilt forward and lower your hands for balance. Then you’re trying to get him to drop his nose by lowering your inside rein even further. That’s part of where the curl comes from IMO. You really want just a slight suppling/bend to the inside to start. To achieve this, your hands have to be even and your inside hand has to slide straight back while the outside hand slides forward as if you’re turning the handlebars on a bicycle. (otherwise, the horse has no room to soften and turn it’s head.

It’s taken my trainer, two clinics with a German Riding Master, and auditing with yet another upper-level clinician all yelling the same thing for me to finally get my hands and seadialed in. What’s helped me: 1) Sit back on where the back pockets on your jeans would be . The German trainer told me to sit back until I thought I’d topple off backwards. And then sit back some more. lol 2) The hands are even with each other. I sometimes imagine that I’m starting the motion of lifting a tray onto a shelf if I find my inside hand dropping. Balanced turns and circles come mostly from the outside rein and leg. 3) His poll is supposed to be the highest part of his neck AND the line of energy should extend out through his tailbone and his poll. You’re holding onto his face, preventing him from engaging his head and neck into a position where he can effectively engage through his back and core and track up under with his hind legs. When you let go the first few times and he clicks into low gear it will feel like a scary amount of power and momentum. The good news is that momentum has someplace to go instead of running forward.

Take heart that good basic dressage can do amazing things for your jumping. One of the top jumpers in the country teaches at our barn every few weeks. He describes jumping as “dressage with stuff in the way”.

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Rosewatt- you wrote a very clear and helpful post- thank you! While not as accomplished as you, I am working with a new trainer on just these issues. My mare is an Arab cross and finds curling up as an evasion very easy. I had no very good idea of how to have her look for the contact.

Thank you demidq :slight_smile: I’m really glad my post helped! Fixing the btv issue was a struggle for me for so many years until that moment where everything clicked. Some horses are very good at faking a frame too, so finding the correct feel can be hard. Keep at it and I’m sure it will come :slight_smile:

grandprixer, I wanted to add a few things after I had the chance to watch your previous video that has been mention. Although I’m keeping in mind that it was taken 2 years ago and I’m sure you two have improved lots since then!

First I’ll address the photo, you have a really lovely leg position. I think dropping your stirrup one or two holes though could give you a greater ability to help lift the horse’s belly and help bring up the back. You definitely have a hunter/ jumper position, but what you need right now is a dressage like position. First, find the right spot for your seat bones. In the picture, you are tilted forward on them. Here is a video to help you do that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZdccDVR6Rk. In particular, the knee lifts are great for finding your seat bones. I use that exercise and the leg swings every warm up still. Then, once you have your seat, I’d like to see you sit up tall; bring your chest up and push your “belt buckle” forward. This will help establish an effective core. In a CC saddle though, this can be difficult and the saddle will be working against you, but i think that you can still accomplish a similar position. You may have to focus on keeping your hips open and upper thigh stretched back though, in order to prevent your leg from slipping forward when you change your upper body. however, if you hope to pursue dressage further, then I do recommend searching for a well-fitting dressage saddle.

One pattern I noticed between the video and your picture is that it appears that you are not following your horse’s head down correctly. It appears you are trying to soften his mouth with rein, but this instead comes from the body and not the hand.You are also holding for far too long; the horse also needs you to give your hands forward as you ask for hind end engagement. In other words, you need to give the horse room to move forward. This is accomplished by allowing your elbow to come forward and it is the same in long and low. However, if your horse is now not stepping up to the bit, then other measures will need to be taken.

From seeing your other video, there is no doubt in my mind that you do need to re-establish the basics. Not because you are a bad rider or trainer - every rider has to back track at some point, but because the horse doesn’t understand all the principles leading up to connection and that is difficult to build on for collective work. This especially if you are ever considering 3rd level work with a double bridle where everything will be magnified.

Although you do have to take a step back from riding in a “frame” when going back to that basics, it does not mean that you don’t get to practice some of the more interesting things you’ve been working on now. I can confirm that it is much more challenging to practice leg yeid, shoulder in and travers without using your rein - even more challenging when you try and maintain a long-low connection whilst doing so. In this process, you’ll notice the horse suddenly wiggling out of the movement, pushing out his shoulder and trailing his haunches and you can work on all of this by making tiny alterations such as leg yielding in the opposite direction immediately as he pushes out his shoulder. Now, you are not only riding the movement, but also training your horse to self regulate the movement!