Flat work is not the same a dressage

[SendenHorse]

Classical dressage here, this is totally one of my pet peeves. No flatwork isn’t dressage.

Back to the questions:

Balance is balance.

I want my dressage horse a bit more on the vertical with the nose, still out though…

but you can (and IMHO should) ride HJ horses with an elevated shoulder and freely moving back. Since its about the back not the head, the head can go where I need it to go. I ride up/down, more nose out, etc. (Just never “deep”).

My horse is/was a good green jumper because he has excellent balance and straightness, but he did get a bit rattled when he wasn’t supported as much in the aids.

I have to be very careful how he is introduced to gymnastics so he still feels we have a conversation. He is a worrier naturally, and very sensitive.

I don’t “get” the resistance to dressage, its so good for all horses. Maybe its lack of education on why we ask for balance, rhythm, straightness, and collection.

Never understood how you can go around a course with a stiff braced horse, pulling and going on the forehand. No thanks’

But no, the average 2-3" horse probably won’t need to be collected, but the joints of the front legs will last longer if not getting pounded on the forehand.

USE the movements, they are going to only help!

[ladyj79]

more importantly, alexander is super hot.

[ACMEeventing]

Maybe I need to stalk, er, watch the video :lol:

[Foxtrot_s]

Jack Le Geoff used to say he did not like event horses schooled into Fourth level as he likes his horses to be able to use judgement and make decisions and not expect the rider to be responsible for every step…that meant to translate into x-country and jumping.

I also suggest that ‘flatting’, meaning hunter flat work, is a lot different from work required for jumpers and eventers where back end and back strength is a big requirement, where contact is more, balance, speed and quick turns.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=ACMEeventing;8969395]
Maybe I need to stalk, er, watch the video :lol:[/QUOTE]

other people disagree with me, but they are wrong. presuming you like prematurely grey men…which i do!!

[ladyj79]

But to the actual topic, I’m a mid level dressage rider and I flat fei show jumpers. If you watch the best of the best ride, there are a lot of mid level dressage fundamentals at play.

Nelson Pessoa is a master flat rider, so all the brazilians have superb dressage fundamentals, and most of them take dressage lessons from gp trainers on the regular. Several of the belgian show jumpers I know also regularly work with dressage trainers. I haven’t seen a lot of show jumpers in Europe who don’t have pretty superb flat work.

That said, a number of the younger, wealthier girls don’t have the strongest foundations. Lots of draw reins and riding in half seat. Including my Olympian. What they have is the money to buy and replace very good horses.

[JER]

A horse should always be on the aids. It’s what the aids are asking for (or maintaining) that differs, and the rider needs to know when to ask for what.

Riding is riding.

[Winding_Down]

Okay, so if flatwork is not dressage, how do the aids differ?

I swear I do the same exercises, minus as much trot lengthenings/extensions, in flatwork as I do in dressage work. I work on circles, straightness, transitions, lateral moves, etc.

Basically, I ride the same regardless, with the exception of sitting in a dressage saddle with longer stirrups. I probably do more canter/gallop work on days when I do “dressage” in a jump saddle. But everything else is the same.

Oh, and I am probably in the minority in my belief that advanced dressage work doesn’t hurt, and actually helps jump work. Horses should know the aids for taking over as well as for collection… if that makes any sense at all. There is nothing worse than galloping xc on a horse that does not have a strong foundation in dressage. (or flatwork, if that’s what we want to call it). Like JER says, riding is riding and a horse should always be on the aids. The training scale matters no matter what you are asking a horse to do.

I am also one of those who does not believe in the “dressage will come later,” mentality. If a horse is not scoring well in the dressage at the LLs, then there are holes, and as you move up the levels, you will trip into and fall down those holes. Get it right from the beginning and you avoid the horse suffering frustration and confusion later on.

[Lusoluv]

At most reputable European barns, riders must know how to demonstrate the basic dressage movements (shoulder-in, haunches-in, LY, counter canter, FC.). Approximately 2nd level. It demonstrates basic control of the horse’s front/hind and application of the aids. Why anyone would want to start flying through the air without harmonious control of the 1200 lb. animal they’re on boggles me!

My dressage background has allowed my move safely up the lower levels of eventing on a younger green horse. This was our first season. I’ve been fortunate to finish top 3 at every HT and have surpassed those on our farm team that have been just jumping anywhere from 5-15 years longer than me on made horses. They keep asking me the secret to my success and I say lots of correct dressage. Only a few of them have taken me at my word…

[yellowbritches]

To me, it isn’t the difference in aids, but the difference in priorities. Now, let me be clear. This is in regards to COMPETITIVE dressage riding. Which doesn’t always follow the classical things (thought it should). When I schooled dressage, there was much more emphasis, to me, on perfecting everything. Not only riding the movements, but pushing to get every last ounce out of my horse’s way of going. Getting expression and quality. I spent HOURS on 20 meter circles doing things that were to improve gaits, getting everything I could out of my horse’s gaits, and then trying to keep that AND do it while also doing the movements PERFECTLY. Yes. It all made him rideable, strong and, elastic, but the goal was that AND fancy pants on top of that.

When I moved away from the dressage ring, I still used all the exercises I had always used. We still did tons of lateral work and transistions, but it moved away from “how do we execute this shoulder in as close to perfect, technically, and do it with the absolute most quality movement we can get without frying you” and moved toward “how will this movement improve our turns or our straightness to our fences? How can I make you more rateable and adjustable with this exercise?” I focused FAR less on the quality of his gaits (while still working toward moving freely and without tension), and FAR more on the feel he gave me.

It’s a fine, fine line, because the things I say I Want while I’m schooling my horse on the flat as a jumper can sound a lot like classical dressage (softness, rhythm, straightness, obedience). And while that was ALL important to me in the dressage ring, I need all of that AND then some. It was never enough for him to be soft and obedience…he also had to be spectacular.

I’m rambling…

[ACMEeventing]

Actually, yellowbritches, you make exactly perfect sense.

[Lusoluv]

Agree and understand you yellowbritches!

[Lusoluv]

Correct dressage training should not create a totally subservient horse. The upper level competitive dressage rider knows this. It’s that spark and spirit of “spectacular” in the horse that still shines through their work. I think training a horse by total domination, over-deep riding is what Jos Kumps was warning against.

[Sticky_Situation]

I do think that too much micromanaging all the time is detrimental to an event horse or jumper. While the basics of dressage (connection, flexion, lateral work, etc) can definitely improve the jumping, a horse that is used to having the rider fully control every move he makes at all times isn’t going to be able to “think on his feet” very well when jumping a course that gets a bit technical.

Additionally, incorrect dressage in which the horse is ridden backward into a tight frame and collected to the point that he loses the willingness to freely go forward and gets “stuck” behind the aids, is definitely going to be problematic for jumping.

[Curly_Feather]

@Sticky Situation;8969607

I do think that too much micromanaging all the time is detrimental to an event horse or jumper. While the basics of dressage (connection, flexion, lateral work, etc) can definitely improve the jumping, a horse that is used to having the rider fully control every move he makes at all times isn’t going to be able to “think on his feet” very well when jumping a course that gets a bit technical.

I used to subscribe to this idea (in part), especially with regards to eventing. Ingrid Klimke and Michael Jung pretty much blew it out of my mind. I’ve since modified it to “forced, prescriptive riding of any kind can damage jumping.” Dressage has nothing to do with it.

[Foxtrot_s]

Sounds as if we are all on the same page - I’m not actually getting what the
clinician in the first post was trying to say, unless he meant incorrect dressage.

[lecoeurtriste]

I agree that good upper level dressage work should NOT create a subservient partner (horse). My mare is schooling grand prix and showing intermediare, but we jump weekly and event (novice) a few times each year. Whether jumping or schooling dressage, she is always thinking forward and asking “what’s next”. My dressage coach and I work to only give aids when something needs to change–in other words, if we’re half passing across the arena, I give her the aid to begin, and only give her additional cues if something needs correction (absolutely no micromanaging or drilling to the point of boredom). And while most of our dressage work is done in collection, all FEI tests ask for mediums and extensions in both trot and canter (and the ability to transition in/out on a dime). It all comes down to the horse–if they can remain actively engaged (mentally) and responsible for where their legs are going during dressage schooling, then all flat work CAN (should) be dressage (which can definitely improve jumping rhythm, straightness, and balance).

[Foxtrot_s]

I WISH most horses could be ridden without being nagged or constantly aided. It just does not seem to be the way a lot of riders work.

[Winding_Down]

I’ve decided that really this is all a matter of semantics.

[Ajierene]

I feel like the clinician is talking about incorrect dressage. At one point he talks about eventers taking a dressage lesson where their stirrups are so low, their legs are stretching to meet the irons.

Then, they took a jumping lesson (I believe in the example it was with him and someone else) and the horses were jumping like “tables”. Not jumping tables - jumping flat enough you could use them as tables.

He compares this to George Morris who, he states, always had his heels as the lowest point.

Your dressage stirrups should be longer than jumping length, but not so long that your heels are not the lowest point.

He mentions a few other things that lead me to feel he’s talking about incorrect riding more than dressage as a whole.

I see this quite often at shows - horses forced into frames, riders with stirrups to long so they cannot properly influence their horse, whips used as crutches, etc. None of this is proper dressage.