https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNoVVB7Wtik
So I was sitting at work last night bored to tears. I found this clinic video with Jos Kumps. I really enjoyed hearing his take on flat work and jumping. Around 54 minutes, he goes off on a tangent talking about how straight dressage training can actually hurt a horse’s jumping instead of the other way around. He just kind of grazed over the idea and moved on, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Well his definition of dressage may differ from others. I personally believe that flatwork is dressage. Like when my 10 year old niece is out walking and trotting her pony, she comes in afterwards and says that she “did dressage” today. No one raises an eyebrow.
I have dressage days or flatwork days. I do the same stuff on both days but I ride in a jump saddle on the flatwork days. I just use the two terms in my notes to determine what saddle I used or will use. 
I think they are separate. A hunter floating around on a relaxed rein doing lead changes isn’t ridden the same as a horse that is collected doing lead changes. I mean a hunter can be collected and a dressage horse can been on a loose rein, but the concepts (to me) look and feel very different. I’m not explaining myself clearly :ambivalence:
My eventing coaches typically use the two term interchangeably. I can see in hunters or jumpers that flatting would have a different meaning. I only “flat” in my jump saddle if I’m going to pop over a few jumps, or if I’m going to hack at the end of my session (my dressage saddle is too nice for some of the trails I hack on!).
I’ve watched this clinic video series (3 parts) a couple times. As a dressage rider dabbling in low level eventing, I like a lot of what Jos says! I won’t claim to know what he means to say at that 54 min. segment, but based on his ESL verbiage, here’s my take on it. He warns of going to a strictly dressage trainer, and I think he means “upper level” trainer. And if you know of the competitive dressage trainers in Europe, there is a lot of rollkur and tight riding going on.
Good Dressage, schooling up to say 3rd level, is a good foundation for all horses - jumpers included. If you learn to control the front and hind end (shoulder-in, haunches in, HP and flying changes) you can control your horse well. Not relying on the gadgets, crazy bits, etc. G. Morris always warns about.
From watching Rolex dressage tests, which is essentially 3rd level dressage, that’s the highest level of dressage most of us will ever need for eventing competition. Jos also states that many talented and promising jumpers top out after 7 yrs due to being over-ridden by the hand, draw reins, hard bits, etc. Not because of dressage. Too much hand and overbending ruins the gaits and subsequently the horse’s jump. I know of many dressage-only horses who’s walk has been ruined (become lateral) by too much hand or over-deep riding. They also break down from not being able to use their bodies correctly after being kept in a false closed frame.
This is how I took his statements. Tho my first love is dressage, I was not offended by what he said as I agree that it’s difficult to find truly correct, dressage training.
When I attended the GHM clinic, he, in a round about way, addressed this. Flaring, you perform movements of dressage, a shoulder in or shoulder fore, haunches in, leg yield, turn on the forehand, etc, but there is no need to go around in your 20m circle or 20x40m dressage ring and be (oh I can’t think of exactly what he said. I want to say precise, but that’s not the right word…) dressage-like (for lack of better word). We have our dressage days. We work in our dressage rings (areas), and we work on our 20, 15, and 10m circles. We legyeild across the diagonal, we preform movents of our upcoming tests etc. Then, we flat. We will go in the bigger ring and use the long and short sides to work on adjusting strides or switching from shoulder in to hunches in. We throw down some ground poles to help us wth flying changes. Those sort of things.
There is definitely a difference. The latter could be performed in either jump or dressage saddle, but usually makes more sense to do it in your jump saddle as flatting is basically working on your ride in between the jumps without actually using jumps.
All dressage is flatwork. All flatwork isn’t dressage.
I agree with him. I get what he’s saying, but I can’t articulate it. But he’s right.
Since COTH still isn’t letting me edit my posts, I’ll add here that when he spoke specifically about the free walk in the dressage test, there he was emphasizing his point.
I can do it – or I could when I could get on a horse and ride – but it’s one of those things that is easier done than said. But I’ll work on putting it into my words – for my own satisfaction if for no other reason! Good exercise, tbchick!
It’s like where the craft of dressage morphs into the art. We can all do it, but can we articulate it? 
Good video – thanks for sharing!
To a word purist, all flatwork is Dressage, ie training, on the flat. To the Dressage purist, not all flatwork is Dressage. I think the razor’s edge starts with degree of collection. Even then, many disagreements will arise.
Technically, a hunter on a loose rein Isn’t doing Dressage - the connection required isn’t there. But are you training? Yes
Correct riding also differs in “by whose definition”, so you can’t even use that.
Soft, straight and forward are simple, clear words we should all be able to agree on.
I think I understand what he is getting at in terms of getting a horse properly balanced for the task of jumping. The articulation he talked about being the impulsion needed for jumping versus upper level dressage. The issue of dressage riders wanting the free walk to be cut from tests since their horses are not capable of carrying themselves properly on their own etc. The fact that horse can only properly use his rib cage and bring his back up when his nose is slightly in front of the vertical and stretching forward into the contact.
What I wonder is if he is anyway speaking along the lines of what Jim Wofford has says in the past about dressage training taking away the autonomy of the horse and its ability to make judgements on it’s own when jumping technical fences and combinations. Get a horse properly balanced and the rest falls into place.
Good point, tbchick. I would say let a horse balance himself properly and the rest falls into place. And that is where “dressage” has to walk a very fine line between letting and getting. Maybe the more we let, the more we get.
I can see his point. When I stepped away from Eventing and was doing more jumpers last year, I definitely wasn’t doing dressage on our flat days. While we certainly did all the same types of things that we have always done in the dressage, the emphasis was completely different. My priorities changed a great deal and I focused on different things, despite the fact that WHAT we were doing was the same thing. The WHY was different. And while the end goal was basically the same (an obedient, rideable, soft horse), we moved toward the goal differently.
Interesting thought process. I never put a ton of thought behind it.
What I wonder is if he is anyway speaking along the lines of what Jim Wofford has says in the past about dressage training taking away the autonomy of the horse and its ability to make judgements on it’s own when jumping technical fences and combinations. Get a horse properly balanced and the rest falls into place.
This was the point I was going to bring up. Jim Wofford warns that too much Dressage can kill initiative. A horse that is too submissive isn’t going to be thinking about the best striding to the jump; he’s going to be waiting for you to tell him the best spot. He will also be less inclined to save your hide should you flup the distance because he is no longer thinking about how he can best negotiate the question.
I’m sure the gimmicky Dressage mentioned above doesn’t help the horse either as it builds the wrong muscles.
I suspect that he is talking about what most of us consider incorrect dressage. I also suspect that a rider of the stature of Ingrid Klimke would disagree with him except when he speaks of gimmicks.
It has been my observation that as the dressage improves, so does the show jumping. A talented intelligent rider never discourages their horse from thinking for themselves, although at times when the course has altered from one riding to to the next riding, directional discussions can occur.
I suspect that he is talking about what most of us consider incorrect dressage. I also suspect that a rider of the stature of Ingrid Klimke would disagree with him except when he speaks of gimmicks.
It has been my observation that as the dressage improves, so does the show jumping. A talented intelligent rider never discourages their horse from thinking for themselves, although at times when the course has altered from one riding to to the next riding, directional discussions can occur.
This is how and why partnerships develop between horse and rider, especially in the eventing world. They are in this together.
And since editing is now an impossibility, ignore my first post which I was told could not be posted. But was. ???
Allow me to add my further thoughts. Riders coasting around the arena, walk trot and canter, while hopefully riding accurately with a plan, are not doing dressage, they are riding exercise, unless they are hacking out, coping with terrain, working over jumps, as in jumping, or schooling CC. The first could be considered flatting.
Meh, I don’t know. I think all purposeful flatwork is dressage. Remember that the BOTTOM RUNG of the training scale is rhythm. So even the hunter going around on a loose rein is establishing a clear steady rhythm. Dressage.
The term “Collection” gets overly, and improperly, used. Collection doesn’t arrive until the tippity top of the pyramid.
This from someone who is exactly, evenly divided between straight USDF Dressage and Eventing. So take it for the money you paid to read it.
Merrygoround is correct, no editing posts!
Meant to add that I think the word collection is frequently used to describe “packaging up” a horse in preparation for a jump or change in direction or whatever. Is there a moment of collection? Maybe. But usually it is a balancing moment.
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