Flex Trees

It has come up in a couple threads but I didn’t want to derail them.

What is the idea behind flex treed saddles? Are they appropriate for heavier riders?

I have heard good and bad things about them. Seems folks either love or hate them?

I feel like, because of the nature of the tree, a heavier rider would cause the middle of the bars to press into the horse, rather than evenly distribute the pressure across the full length. Not nearly as bad as with a treeless, but enough that with regular use it could cause an issue.
Are there special pads designed for heavy riders using flex treed saddles?

Do you want to flex with pressure to not impede movement, or distribute pressure to help spread load? My engineering degree says you can’t do both.

You can do parts of both badly though:
http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/checking-out-a-flex-tree/

The stiffer the overall saddle, the more it will act like a treed saddle. The more flexible, the more like a legit treeless saddle. Lots end up with weird pressure points because various parts flex to varying degrees.

Avoid. They’re a bit of a marketing gimmick for people who are confused about or frustrated with fitting saddles properly, IMO.

That’s kind of the feeling I’ve gotten from reading up on them. Which is unfortunate because 1) I will never be a lightweight and 2) my gelding is proving to be a beast to fit (as seen in my other thread).

I have to admit, when I first heard of flex trees, I assumed the flex was more side-to-side. As in, the bars flared more when weight/pressure was applied, rather than the front-to-back flex that it appears is the reality. (If that made any sense) Interesting concept nonetheless

[QUOTE=aktill;7878611]
Do you want to flex with pressure to not impede movement, or distribute pressure to help spread load? My engineering degree says you can’t do both.

You can do parts of both badly though:
http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/checking-out-a-flex-tree/

The stiffer the overall saddle, the more it will act like a treed saddle. The more flexible, the more like a legit treeless saddle. Lots end up with weird pressure points because various parts flex to varying degrees.

Avoid. They’re a bit of a marketing gimmick for people who are confused about or frustrated with fitting saddles properly, IMO.[/QUOTE]

No idea what brand of tree that is, but it looks like crap to me. Of course, Mr. Nikkel is trying to get you to buy one of his saddles, so it’s a very biased opinion. I ride in the Circle Y Flex2 tree, and love it. I don’t think you can paint all flex trees with one brush, as the design behind the different brands is different. Can’t say enough good things about the Circle Y Flex2, my horses move great in them, I trail ride for 2-3 hours in them comfortably and win competitions in them. My son’s Rocking R saddle with the Steele tree put white patches on our good show mare, which went away after switching to the Circle Y Flex2. Great fit on several different types of horses. As long as you are putting the correct tree width on the horse, you should not have a problem. Just ordered my third saddle with the Flex2 tree, and believe me, I would not spend the money if I did not really like the tree. Your best bet would be to call the folks or chat with them at horsesaddleshop.com. I see enough large male riders out there that you will probably get good feedback, no matter what your size.

He’s a treemaker, not a saddlemaker. He’s also got a closed order book, and even those of us in he book have a 4 month wait. So the incentive to convince is pretty low.

What’s the point of a flex tree?

Here’s a video of the circle y tree:
http://youtu.be/SBuiOj7L3wE

Essentially it’s a solid tree with flexible tips…meaning you’re essentially on a very short tree.

The tree reviewed in the article has fully flexible bars.

[QUOTE=Ceylon Star;7878456]
It has come up in a couple threads but I didn’t want to derail them.

What is the idea behind flex treed saddles? Are they appropriate for heavier riders?

I have heard good and bad things about them. Seems folks either love or hate them?

I feel like, because of the nature of the tree, a heavier rider would cause the middle of the bars to press into the horse, rather than evenly distribute the pressure across the full length. Not nearly as bad as with a treeless, but enough that with regular use it could cause an issue.
Are there special pads designed for heavy riders using flex treed saddles?[/QUOTE]

All rigid tree saddles “flex” to some degree. They are designed to do so as the back of a horse is a constantly changing “landscape” and the saddle must conform to those changes. A heavy “steer roping” saddle will flex less than a light weight “pleasure saddle” but both will have some “give” in them. Well engineered saddles take this account; they are usually more expensive but quality doesn’t cost, it pays.

The first patents for “flexible tree” saddles date to the 1840s. Multiple inventors tried to make them work successfully. In 1912 both the U.S. and British cavalries introduced “flexible tree” saddles. The U.S. abandoned the effort after the Punitive Expedition where the 1912 Experimental Saddle demonstrated the twin vices of failing in field service and soring horses’ backs. The British abandoned their version fairly quickly but Aussies used it until after WWI. Then they returned to a treed saddle.

Regarding weight, note that the standard load carried by a U.S. horse was 230-250 lbs. and the British load was 280-300 lbs. (their tack and weapons were slightly heavier than the U.S. equivalents). The load on German and Austrian horses during the Great War often ran to 325 lbs. plus. The McClellan, UP, and Armeesattels of the day were rigid tree and demonstrated reasonable success in the field.

Because rigid trees “flex” the argument that they “sore” backs because of pressure points at the corners is very questionable. A major problem with “treeless” saddles is that they don’t effectively distribute weight so that the rider in one of these has effectively traded four “corner” pressure points (which may or may not even exist) for two giant pressure points under their butt. This does not, to me, seem much of a trade. Nor does my horse think much of it. :wink:

How about a “corrective pad” under the flex tree/treeless saddle to correct the “non-distribution” flaw? That might work but it seems to me to be adding a level of complexity, and expense, to the problem. The KISS principle still has merit when it comes to saddle selection.

No “flex tree” saddle ever achieved commercial success during the Age of Horsepower. I’ve yet to see a modern take on this idea, which has consistently failed over time, which effectively addresses the flaws inherent in the “flex” theory and practice.

G.

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7879737]
All rigid tree saddles “flex” to some degree. They are designed to do so as the back of a horse is a constantly changing “landscape” and the saddle must conform to those changes. A heavy “steer roping” saddle will flex less than a light weight “pleasure saddle” but both will have some “give” in them. Well engineered saddles take this account; they are usually more expensive but quality doesn’t cost, it pays.

The first patents for “flexible tree” saddles date to the 1840s. Multiple inventors tried to make them work successfully. In 1912 both the U.S. and British cavalries introduced “flexible tree” saddles. The U.S. abandoned the effort after the Punitive Expedition where the 1912 Experimental Saddle demonstrated the twin vices of failing in field service and soring horses’ backs. The British abandoned their version fairly quickly but Aussies used it until after WWI. Then they returned to a treed saddle.

Regarding weight, note that the standard load carried by a U.S. horse was 230-250 lbs. and the British load was 280-300 lbs. (their tack and weapons were slightly heavier than the U.S. equivalents). The load on German and Austrian horses during the Great War often ran to 325 lbs. plus. The McClellan, UP, and Armeesattels of the day were rigid tree and demonstrated reasonable success in the field.

Because rigid trees “flex” the argument that they “sore” backs because of pressure points at the corners is very questionable. A major problem with “treeless” saddles is that they don’t effectively distribute weight so that the rider in one of these has effectively traded four “corner” pressure points (which may or may not even exist) for two giant pressure points under their butt. This does not, to me, seem much of a trade. Nor does my horse think much of it. :wink:

How about a “corrective pad” under the flex tree/treeless saddle to correct the “non-distribution” flaw? That might work but it seems to me to be adding a level of complexity, and expense, to the problem. The KISS principle still has merit when it comes to saddle selection.

No “flex tree” saddle ever achieved commercial success during the Age of Horsepower. I’ve yet to see a modern take on this idea, which has consistently failed over time, which effectively addresses the flaws inherent in the “flex” theory and practice.

G.[/QUOTE]

This was really interesting, and I never would have thought that a traditional tree flexed at all, given how heavy and solid they are. But the way you put it, it makes sense!!

I currently weigh in at a hair under 220lbs. Add in the fact that my balance is poor compared to last year due to being out of the saddle for most of the last year due to my injury, and now I don’t have the best use of the (now healed) injured leg. Even if I was under 200lbs I know that I am in no way a candidate for a treeless, even if one interested me. But the flex tree concept has been suggested by many to try for my gelding, and I worried that the issue I would have with a treeless would be the same with a flex tree.

Aktil: the flexible tips actually seems like a good idea to me. What is it that makes you think it is not? (Honestly wondering because it seems smart to me!)

Because you may as well cut them off for all the good they’ll do, really. The point of a saddle tree is to distribute weight, so in my world, you maximize the amount of tree in contact with the horse’s back. Shaped properly, bar tips are a good thing! The reason you go to a good saddlemaker (or treemaker) is that they help you get the shape right.

That website is full of fitting info, and despite the earlier insinuation, they’re not doing it just to sell their trees. You couldn’t phone them and order directly right now anyway…their order book is closed to new customers.

[QUOTE=aktill;7880314]
Because you may as well cut them off for all the good they’ll do, really. The point of a saddle tree is to distribute weight, so in my world, you maximize the amount of tree in contact with the horse’s back. Shaped properly, bar tips are a good thing! The reason you go to a good saddlemaker (or treemaker) is that they help you get the shape right.[/QUOTE]

Makes sense!! :slight_smile:

Good luck! Once you’ve had the chance to learn the concepts, it’s not too hard.

The only experience that I have with flex trees, is a pack saddle, and it sored the horse, so we went back to a traditional pack saddle
It is true that all traditional trees flex to some point, but the synthetic trees do not
Far a treeless saddles, the original treeless saddles were truly treeless, and that design flaw soon became clear, as a horse is not designed to carry weight directly on the spine, in a small concentrated area
Special pads were then introduced, to try and compensate-again not the true solution
Next came the treeless saddles, with a form of bridging. In reality, a hybrid, with the term ;treeless, having the same subliminal selling incentive as the word natural does, having in fact, a type of tree.
A well made traditional saddle has stood the test of time, at least for me, and many others

I purchased a Circle Y Lisa Lockhart Flex2 saddle this spring. They had it in a WIDE version which fit my horse beautifully.

This is my first experience with a “flex” tree and I honestly cannot say that I noticed that it’s a flex tree.

Nor is my horse’s back sore after a busy, busy show season in the new saddle. I’m quite happy with it.

[QUOTE=beau159;7881059]
I purchased a Circle Y Lisa Lockhart Flex2 saddle this spring. They had it in a WIDE version which fit my horse beautifully.

This is my first experience with a “flex” tree and I honestly cannot say that I noticed that it’s a flex tree.

Nor is my horse’s back sore after a busy, busy show season in the new saddle. I’m quite happy with it.[/QUOTE]

I agree. My horses are super happy in these trees, and I spend enough hours in the saddle each week that it would be pretty apparent if there was a design flaw.

I am the first to admit that the plural of anecdote is not data. However, I ride in a Fabtron Lady Trail synthetic saddle and my schoolie is overjoyed to see me coming. I don’t do long rides, though - an hour and a half or two hours at the most, two or three times a week - and I weigh about 150 lbs. So I don’t know how they hold up with heavier riders and longer rides.