Flexible trees?

I’ve been following a blog by a regional rep for a well known saddle brand. At one point, rep said that this saddle has a plastic composite tree and because of this, has a lot more flex than a regular wooden spring tree. The rep said that because of this, it’s acceptable for these saddles to show bridging when fitted to the horse, because the rider’s weight will sink down and close that gap. This flexibility was being highlighted as a huge advantage to these saddles. Rep seemed to be claiming they were the most flexible trees available.

I have been mulling this over, and am wondering first, if this is true? Second, what happens if the saddle fits true, is there extra pressure under the rider? And third, whether this is a good idea?

My horse doesn’t seem to be a candidate for this brand as it’s current models rock on her: saddle is too curvy. So it’s more a hypothetical situation because I’ve never heard this said in relation to a traditional brand of English saddle with a tree.

I have however seen other brands make statements about fitting that seemed counter intuitive or plain wrong to me, and felt they were being a bit self serving in regards to setting customers up to accept less than optimal fit.

I wasn’t naming the brand because this is just coming from the regional rep, not head office.

Maybe so and maybe not.

It’s quite true that an English tree that is composite will have more “give” to it and whether or not that’s a good or bad thing will depend on horse conformation, rider (weight, conformation, skill, etc.), and shape of the tree itself.

Western trees tend to be much more robust (not surprising given the horse’s job in a place where tie-down roping is common). But not all Western saddles are used for steer roping so there will be some variation.

In 1912 both the American and British cavalries introduced “flexible tree” saddles. They were not composite materials (which were not yet invented) but used mechanical systems that allowed the saddle to more closely “shape” itself to the horse. They were not successful and both would abandon them fairly quickly. Sore backs were the most common complaint received. The second most was that the construction was not robust enough for military use in the field.

A horse changes shape when it starts to move. That means a saddle fit that was perfect stationary will be not-perfect once the horse is in motion. How not-perfect will it get? Depends.

Here is one system to measure dynamic saddle pressure:

https://medilogic.com/en/products-animal/horse-saddle-measurement/

I don’t endorse this but just found it doing a Google search.

Here are a couple of abstracts that discuss the issue:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16014331

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2746/0425164044848235

You can get a “quick and dirty” estimate of fit by looking at the sweat pattern on your horse’s back after work. Just look at the pattern and you can usually figure out the higher and lower pressure areas.

Fit is motion is what is truly key and that is the harder thing to do.

G.

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Yes, the dynamic fit of the saddle is a big issue and it’s possible that a horse working correctly might raise its back and fill in a small amount of bridging.

The electronic saddle pad looks intriguing! Too bad the research article suggests it doesn’t quite work IRL.

But the reps claim that the rider’s weight will eliminate the bridging doesn’t really take dynamic fit into account. And if the saddle didn’t bridge, would the rider’s weight be concentrated as can happen on some treeless saddles?

The rep is right if, but only if, the weight is just right to bend the tree just right! If the rider is too light or too heavy then it won’t work as they suggest. That’s high school Physics; but, then, maybe the rep never took Physics!!! :wink:

Yes, you are correct that horse correctly bascule’d should raise the the back the correct amount to fully distribute the weight of the rider and tack, gear, etc. BUT horses don’t always do that and maybe we don’t even want them to. Like so many things saddle makers, sellers, and hawkers can come up with a lot of reasons why if you use their saddle you’ll run faster, dive deeper, and come up drier than any other horse on the planet. When you hear that language make sure your Detector Set, Night Soil, Bovine, Male is fully charged and operational!!! :slight_smile:

G.

I think you are on the right track by being skeptical about the rep. It doesn’t sound logical to me.

“Flex” trees are all different, so each make/model should be judged on it’s own merits (or lack thereof). What works for the individual horse is the “best” tree, no matter what the make/model.

The shape of a horse’s back while standing still is very different than the shape of the back while jumping a big jump, or turning a barrel, etc. In all honesty, the bareback pad is probably the ultimate fit for the horse.

True, though the bareback pad doesn’t distribute the riders weight like a saddle with a tree is meant to do. That was OK when I was 14 and weighed 98 lbs. Not so much now!

The saddle brand in question does work well for many horses, obviously. My guess is that it doesn’t bend nearly as much as the rep claims. I suspect this could be a rationalization for selling saddles that bridge.

I’ve seen another brand’s website that had a different but comparable explanation for why bridging isn’t really bridging. It was along the lines of, if you only have sweat marks on your saddle pad at pommel and cantle, mid back is clean and dry, that’s good because you only get sweat marks where the saddle moves.

Bridging to any extent is a sign the tree is a basic mismatch for the horse. And the back to front curve of the tree is something the sales rep can’t alter. Bridging is also some everyone knows about but sometimes has trouble evaluating on their own.

So it makes sense sales reps would downplay it’s importance to fit in creative ways in order to make sales.

Be careful of “sweat pattern analysis.” Dry areas can mean no sweat buildup because of air flow or the fit is so hard the area can’t sweat. The last item is often seen around withers of horses wearing a saddle with a tree that is too narrow.

The tree has to “accommodate” the back most of the time. We help it out with a good quality (design and material) padding system. Then, under the padding integral to the saddle we use an additional system that will work with the integral saddle padding to get the most even weight distribution, which is the true Object of the Exercise.

Saddle fit isn’t a “black art” but it does require some knowledge of the process. There are some utube videos worth seeing. If you hire a saddle fitter ask them to give you a running commentary as they make findings and suggestions.

G.

Yes, I have a good saddle fitter and have learned a lot from her. I’ve used her back tracings to assess saddles and have been able to choose ones she approves of.

I would think a saddle was bridging if the pad or back showed sweat around the withers and on part of the back but had a big gap in mid back.

If I know who you’re talking about, and I’m pretty sure I do, she posts lots of fancy pictures and drawings of saddles that don’t fit horses and explains in great detail why she thinks they do. Most of her posts make no sense and much of what she is posting is stuff I have heard parroted by other Stubben fitters, so it seems to be the corporate party line.

Their trees are no different than any other traditional saddle tree. It is the same shape as any other belted tree made of wood. There is nothing unique to them, despite the promotional material. They claim to use elasticated webbing to give “suspension” to the seat, but I’m not sure I believe it because unless it stretches only a very minor amount, the seat would wear very quickly and deform. Additionally, this brand was historically known for very hard seats, so that makes little sense.

The video discussing the flexible tree involves placing exactly the opposite kind of force on the saddle tree as she’s describing. Flexing it front to rear like that requires a compressive force. The rider’s weight, by definition, would not produce this movement or this action because neither the front nor the rear of the saddle are fixed in position by a solid mass. Thus, absolutely nothing happens in terms of flex when the rider sits in the saddle. If any point of the tree could flex, it would be the points being spread by the downward force of the rider’s weight versus the fixed mass of the horse’s body - but that is why saddles have steel headplates, so that doesn’t happen. That saddle that she posted a photo of will fit a little better with a rider in it and the girth on, but it is not going to fit properly. I don’t agree that the gap should be filled with a pad or with flocking, I think overall this saddle is not right for this horse and it seems she agrees with me since the video is of her trying to demonstrate that the saddle in question does not flex, but in a very convoluted way to prove that other brand would fit. I think it probably would, but that has nothing to do with the flexibility of the tree. Red herring.

I see several posts on this person’s page indicating why it is acceptable to fit a saddle that is too narrow or completely the wrong shape for the horse or bad for the rider. For example, I see a very detailed post in which the saddle is balanced by stuffing up the rear to align with the horse’s STANDING center of gravity, which makes little sense at all. That very area will lift if the horse is working correctly and the extra flocking in the rear will press into the horse’s back with the rider’s weight.

In general I think saddle fitters should really have to take some biomechanics and kinetics courses to be certified or at least be good at what they do. It is not difficult to understand how the horse’s back works and how the rider influences it if you have a basic understanding of physics and spatial relationships. In pursuit of more comfort for the horse we have turned saddle fitting into an incredibly detailed rocket science that leaves the average horse owner scratching their head and assuming that every minute their saddle doesn’t fit. That may not be true if you can develop your own eye for what will fit and what will not and what problems are likely to cause actual discomfort versus what are nonissues.

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We may be looking at the same blog for sure! I didn’t want to call out the brand because I think it’s a decent product and one rep doesn’t affect the total brand. There have been other things I wondered about, but the flexible tree stuff was the point I decided the fitting advice was going off track and wanted a reality check!

Also I do not think I will ever want pink or baby blue trim on a medium brown saddle. But that’s just stodgy old me.

A basic trouble with flexible is that it is flexible.

While it seems nice that a tree will flex as the back flexes, the reason saddles have some non flexing trees is that it spreads the weight of the rider over as large surface as is suitable.
Flex trees hinder that, in fact, now you have pressure points that ads considerable more weight on those than a rigid tree would.
That may cause sore spots, getting more sore the more you use that saddle that is causing that.

I know barrel racers that tried the treeless saddles and loved them and said how well their horses were going, at first, then their performance deteriorated, horses started acting up and they found some horses that just didn’t go well in those.
Treeless is an extreme of flexible trees, but some of those flexible trees had similar problems.

I would say, it depends on the horse and saddle, no matter which kind of each, if something works.
Just keep trying until you find what fits what horse best and some times, a flexible tree may just be that.

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Again, “flexible” is relative to the make/model. You are using the term as if the entire tree is flexible is all flexible trees. For example, the Circle Y Flex2 tree is a combination of flexible and nonflexible materials and the groundseat does not flex.

https://circley.com/experience-the-flex2/

No, I am using the term clearly as there are all kinds of flexible, from treeless to all different brands of flexible.
Who remembers the old Ortho-flex models, that were using hinged and flexible panels on the base tree to flex with the horse?

I still will say, it depends on the horse and what it will be doing and what kind of flexible we are talking about if it is a good fit and for when and how long, being aware that may change also.

The lady I learned from emphasized that saddles didn’t “fit” (as we might we think of shoes) but instead accommodated a variety of back shapes as the horse changed as a result of movement. Indeed if you want to use shoes as an analogy consider that you have flip flops, runners, heels, dress oxfords, boots, etc. We have all these human foot gear types as our foot changes shape as it flexes but does not change size. The horse actually not only changes shape but becomes longer or shorter or rounder or less round as it moves. This is why we have to think of a system when we think of saddles and their fit, not just a collection of parts.

There is a measure of complexity in saddle choice and fitting but it’s not really “rocket science” once you accept the basic principle of “flexibility” in the tree and build a system to accommodate that. :slight_smile:

G.