I have heard that riding dressage, eventually you will basically be riding in shoulder fore all of the time.
I have also heard, that you simply want a bend around your inside leg, so flexion to the inside with the haunches wrapped around that leg as well.
Which is correct?
Somebody else will probably explain this more eloquently by the time I finish typing but here goes:
As to the first statement, that probably refers to moving the shoulders in front of the haunches so that the horse can be truly straight. Horses are wider behind than in front and are naturally crooked, so if you let them follow the rail their haunches will tend to fall slightly to the inside. This isn’t quite the same as riding shoulder-fore all the time, IMO, because in shoulder-fore you should have more bend to the inside whereas if you are riding straight down the track ideally your horse will be straight. According to Walter Zettl, in the shoulder-fore a horse should be bent as though on a 20 m circle (vs. 10 m circle for shoulder-in).
That said, I do find that the idea of shoulder-fore helps develop straightness, especially in canter and especially to the direction in which your horse’s haunches tend to fall to the inside. I ride my GP horse in right-lead canter with the idea of shoulder-fore to keep him straight, but if we are traveling on a straight line there is no bend.
As to your second point, you want bend to correspond to the horse’s line of travel. So, you want bend on circles (more or less, depending on the size of the circle), in corners (more or less, depending on the training level and ability of the horse/rider to ride deep into the corners), and in lateral work (except for leg-yield, where there should be flexion but not bend). Bend should be from nose to tail so I do think the image of the horse wrapping around your inside leg is accurate as long as it’s done evenly and the haunches aren’t merely falling/pushing in. If the horse is going straight down the long side or across the diagonal, you want them straight. (But referring back to point one, riding them straight still means keeping the shoulders in front of the haunches.)
Does that help at all?
Oops, can’t edit but meant to link here for my Walter Zettl source: http://www.walterzettl.net/flexionandbend.html
That is extremely helpful - I have a much better picture in my head now, thank you!!
Some call it “position R or L,” as opposed to shoulder fore, or S/I. As the shoulders come off the wall to maintain the straight alignment between the narrower forehand and the wider hindquarters, there is just a suggestion of an inside bend.
I want to point out, flexion and bend are two different things. Flexion (lateral flexion, I won’t get into longitudinal) is through the poll and jaw, and has nothing to do with the horse’s body. Flexion is created with the hand, bend is created with the leg and seat. This is an important difference - although there is a relationship between flexion and bend, they are separate.
Agree with Libby - a slight “shoulder fore” is really all about getting your horse straight and on your aids, lifting their shoulders. I do disagree a bit with WAZ in that a shoulder fore is a fixed angle (that of a 20 meter circle) - I think there are degrees of shoulder fore, based on what you want - many trainers I have worked with use different degrees of SF. But do like the “visual” of the amount of bend in relation to different size circles. OMG, I can still hear WAZ - Open ze door!
When you think about it - SF is all about inside leg to outside rein. It is a great tool!
MysticOakRanch - so having a horse wrapped around the inside leg, s/f or s/i are all considered different types of bend?
and flexion is involved in all 3, correct? just corresponding to the degree of shoulder bend?
first position is a not on 3 or 4 tracks, its a mild version, this is what we ride when we ride this “shoulder fore all the time”. Don’t move the tracks of the feet .
Flexion is only the jaw moving so you see the eyelash- the skull moves L or R. Bend is the curve along the spine. You can have flexion with out bend but bend has always flexion.
Bend is in degrees, but should be evenly arced around the leg. 20m cicles have almost no bend, but a 10m circle sure does- my impression is that a real shoulder in has the bend of a 10m circle- that is why we take in in and out of a shoulder fore- to set up or refresh the bend.
[QUOTE=Dressage_Strider;8997532]
MysticOakRanch - so having a horse wrapped around the inside leg, s/f or s/i are all considered different types of bend?
and flexion is involved in all 3, correct? just corresponding to the degree of shoulder bend?[/QUOTE]
Yes, and I think Senden sums it up. Proper bend requires flexion, but you can have flexion without bend. It is important to understand the difference because your response in fixing a problem in flexion versus bend is very different.
Very different because flexion you correct with rein aid but bend you correct with leg/seat aid, right?
What do you mean “correct” with rein aid?
Flexion is achieved by the bit, this is why many in the French school do “flexions” either in hand or mounted.
Bend is achieved by the riders seat/weight sculpting the horse around the arc. Simplistically it’s moving the hips where the outside is back, inside is forward/down, inner thigh active, hip flexors active.
(this assumes a symmetrical rider- most of us float up one side of the horse).
Yes, you are right that bend is more the seat/core.
[QUOTE=Dressage_Strider;8997755]
Very different because flexion you correct with rein aid but bend you correct with leg/seat aid, right?[/QUOTE]
Correct. Otherwise we would never be able ride in counter flexion, or over flexion.
And since the bit IS connected to rider’s hands by the rein aid, corrected is not an incorrect word.
Remember there is left right lateral flexion and up/down longitudinal flexion.
Yes/no hinge at the axis/atlas junction is what the horse uses when he goes too deep/behind the bit.
The left right movement is the lateral flexion.
The poll isn’t a joint but the reference is to axis/atlas joint. The poll is what we use as the marker of things, but its just the spot behind the ears- on top.
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