I think to make your backyard study more robust, you’d have to run it four times, so that each horse does the experiment with each type of spray. That would take away any variation in results because one horse is naturally more attractive to flies than the others.
My mix is a 1/2 quart of Nature’s force, 7oz of permethrin 10 has a measure thing on bottle that’s 1oz. Then i add 1/2 quart of mineral oil. Repels all the bugs we have in the land of swamps/lakes. I thought it was pyrethrin 10 it’s not, i went out to barn and got bottle it’s permethrin 10,livestock and premise spray.
This mix repels and kills deer flies,horse flies, mosquitoes, stable flies and gnats. I find i have to change up fly sprays when i run out of natures force i’ll switch to something else,flies/bugs become immune to sprays if used all the time.
Deet works but becomes totally ineffective after using it for 2 or 3 uses, bugs seem immune to it after that. Not sure natures force used alone would work that good.
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I’m in SoCal. in the Western Mojave Desert elev. 4800 feet. We still get flies. I use Piranha (sp?). It’s about $50/gal and you dilute it. Pleasant citrus smell. If I forget to spray myself with Off, I’ll spray myself with it. It works well. Stalls and turn-outs are cleaned daily. Horses can go out at will, so the stalls don’t have much in them. All the manure is hauled out weekly. They do need fly masks and I’ll use SWAT as needed. Sorry, no study just practice and error.
I bought some E3 Fly and Insect Repellent this year. It’s citronella & few other oils. So far I am quite happy with it. Works just as well as the chemical sprays are.
Which is to say, nothing does as much as I’d like it to.
I use Wipe and find it’s the most effective for short term relief (ie: for a ride, or for hideous black fly mornings in May). I try to be diligent about putting it on every day and re-upping if I ride outside. It’s nasty smelling stuff, and super inconvenient since you wipe it on (as the name implies) rather than spraying. That being said, once my mare is coated in it, she stands happily in her paddock while most of the other horses are stomping or swishing to some degree. She also wears a mask with ears. The Wipe goes on the ears of the mask, under her chin, on her lower legs, up in her udder region, on her chest, belly, and neck.
Then I mist with Bronco for the rest of her. It totally sounds like overkill, but this horse will make herself lame trying to escape from flies, and this seems to make her happy.
We’re on the east coast of Canada.
Indeed. Know anybody at Masters Level or maybe a Vet. Fellow who is interested in this sort of thing? The referenced item was graduate work.
As far as the idea that a study conducted in one place would have no relevance to some other place, that is a misplaced notion. It’s absolutely true that local ecology (all elements) will determine what kind of insects will be present but it’s not true that insect characteristics automatically vary dramatically by the equivalent of a zip code. Or an area code. Or a state line. Or a national boundary. They might, but they might not. That would, ideally be an item to be addressed but one way to do that would be to involve people with an expertise in the various pests to be repelled in the project. This will increase costs (those folks have to eat, too) but would dramatically improve the quality of the output.
Doing your own “local” test is not going to give results that will generate a Nobel in any category! But, then, for most of us we really don’t care overly about what happens on somebody else’s land, we care what happens on ours. If a test between brands, types, or approaches generates relevant data for local use then I see no harm. Unless, of course, the element of zealotry creeps in and we start to think that our local fields are the Center of the Universe and all truth proceeds from them!!! 
G.
I’m in Southern California as well and I also find Pyranha works the best. I’ve tried several other brands including those which claim to be organic and I have found all of them work – for a while. The Pyranha works for hours longer than the others which is why I prefer it. I’m sure the pyrethrins are part of the reason, but the oily component of the product also helps it to cling longer and not just evaporate.
So if there is a study, it is important that the time element be included. If the product only lasts for 20 minutes it’s only good for a farrier appointment.
I feel as though this would be a relatively easy study to do in a lab, no horses needed. Take some fly-attractive thing (a piece of flesh or something). Spray with fly spray. Do a different type of spray/chemical in different aquariums. Release the same number of flies into each aquarium. Video and then code whatever data you think is relevant (how many flies land on the flesh, how long they linger, how many die, etc.) It really wouldn’t be that hard to test?!
But sunlight degrades most repellents. Horses sweat stuff off. They roll. People apply stuff differently. It rains. Flies adapt.
Lab conditions are where the “last 7 days!” claims come from on the bottles, and we all know how THAT goes IRL :lol:
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I am unclear about the role of pyrethrins and permethrin - thought they were actually insecticidal rather than repellant, tho happy to be corrected! I would think that by the time the fly bit, it wouldn’t really matter if it was killed as the damage is already done.
I talked to a vet at our local vet school, he said DEET hasn’t been tested re toxicology for horses. They have a smaller surface area/mass ratio, and thicker skin means less absorbed. He said to go ahead with DEET for horsie- but it’s too expensive for daily use. I do apply it with a wiping mitt before riding out and it is useful for a couple of hours. I think the only effective method is physical with fly sheets and fly mask +/- a fan to blow them away!
You could run the tests after a delay to simulate the spray wearing off, or rain on the samples etc.
Alrighty. How much delay do you think should be accounted for with Endure’s “effective for 14 days” claim?
I thought we were talking about testing the efficacy of the chemicals in flysprays, not the veracity of advertising copy?
I suppose you take a sample and test it 14 days in a row while allowing it to sit in between tests and determine whether it still repels flies after its sat for 14 days.
you can never really control for the actual environment in use (rains for a week straight in my neck of the woods, dry all month for you etc.) I’m just saying if you want to test how individual chemicals stack up in terms of repelling flies, that’s not hard to test. In use the efficacy will always be affected by other factors like weather, dilution, user error etc. that’s not exactly the purpose of the study. The study would be to isolate the efficacy of chemicals so at least you know you’re starting with something that should work on the particular insects you have.
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That’s the point. That advertising claim CAME FROM lab testing. See how useful it is in the real world?
I’m not sure it came from any testing like we’re discussing
Uh, pretty sure it came from testing much like you’re proposing :lol: But that’s okay, just continue to rail and rant. :yes:
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Where’s the study then?! You’d think they’d tout it?!
I always understood “lasts 7 days” to mean that the product was oil based so after 7 days the product would still be detectable on the horse. Not a guarantee that the fly repelling efficacy was identical on day 7 as day 1 (don’t I wish). I always understood that to be more ad copy than a claim of scientific fact. I’ve certainly never seen a study referenced in the ads of language like “scientifically tested” or similar. Notice the language is LASTS 7 days not WORKS for 7 days.
I’m ranting? Seriously?
I think you are being weirdly dogmatic and you are usually sensible so I’m just going to chalk it up to a bad day and quit posting on this tread because I truly don’t get where you are coming from
As I said up thread, virtually all the horse fly sprays have permthrin or pyrethin as the active ingredient, in similar per cents. Thus the only difference between the sprays would be the quality and effectiveness of the carrier. The difference would be how long the spray stayed active on the horse. The spray I’m using has some extravagant claim but I don’t see how anything can remain on a horse a week. After all, the reason these two pesticides are considered ok for organic farming is because they do biodegrade quickly and don’t stay in the environment.
IIRC, they DID when the spray came out. We all laughed because lab studies do not = real world.
There is a LOT out there about testing insect repellents. Like this, for example. But seriously–go google. There’s just a plethora of stuff that talks about study design and lab vs field. This isn’t some fly by night field (haha, fly by night, get it?? :lol:) like you seem to think it is.
Also hit up pubmed. LOTS recent published studies on a variety of animals. You know what’s pretty consistent? They’re nearly all field trials. If they’re in a lab, they use the animal in question (like research beagles for repellents that are for canines.) The non animal lab studies all just conclude “this substance demonstrates repellent activity and should be investigated further.”
This one is particularly interesting, because of this: “According to the European law for products intended for use as a repellent on horses (recreational and sport horses), a field test is mandatory to demonstrate sufficient repellency of such a substance against the specific target fly species, but currently no agreed protocols are available for testing of potential repellents.” (It’s also about DEET, which is notable.)
So field trials are required, but there’s no agreed to single protocol. Why? Probably because it’s not a simple, straightforward thing like you want it to be.
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