Flying Change Hell Support Group

Yes! My clinician told me he had a horse where they just did canter only for about three months. I’ve been doing a version of this and it’s definitely going to the gym for the horse. She is getting much stronger, in her canter and also just in general. Canter is a strength building gait.

To conquer the skip step, we were experimenting with bringing her back into collected strides and tickling her hock with the piaffe whip. It works sometimes but I think my original instinct of pushing her really forward into the change is working better. Her short step is a “backwards” motion in her mind - she tries to throw her shoulder out and brace her neck and grab a hop before changing. Trying to really hold her straight on left, coming through into big canter strides with both hinds, and then asking really strongly for the change is helping. It’s not pretty and definitely running a bit but I don’t care if this is what it takes to deprogram the skip and get a clean canter before, during and after. Sometimes she’s even late behind doing this and I’m happier with that right now than the skip.

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My lesson on Saturday had a good chunk of working on the set up for FC. True straightness is a big key for me. The better I can control the left shoulder (his wonky one), the easier it is for him to do a clean change. I accidentally got a couple of two tempis when he was really straight. Not what we need for our 3rd level tests this coming weekend. As soon as I figure something out, something else goes to crap. Such is life in dressage.

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Whelp,

I played hooky from work and went to the barn, where the Natural Horsemanship Vaquero trainer at the barn was riding his really reactive ultra Hancock -bred QH. The horse is (to me) incredibly well-balanced for a QH and would be a great dressage horse. But he did try to run though a fence last year under saddle. I digress. I watched the ride when I got to the barn.

“THIS horse just learned clean changes and mine still can’t get them???” I yelled to him. He laughed. We talked about it and he offered to do a training ride on my horse today. He had to work at it and my horse threw the same things at him that he does me, but he put in clean changes in both directions (mosty with a couple of strides of cross-canter but he produced clean changes in both directions and we ended things on that).

He talked throughout the whole ride (so informative), telling me what my horse was doing and how he was addressing it. To summarize, he thought the biggest issue was that my horse was “down in the shoulders” even though he was lifting his back and was too forward. He was evading. He said “shoulders up” and as my horse learned the aid and ended up saying said “sir, yes sir” rather than complaining. He also moved my horse’s hind end to the inside when he cross-cantered. I do that too, but I’m apparently too nice. R says “move it now” and can reinforce that with cowboy spurs. R is amazingly “in and out” with the aids and my horse would complain but ended up saying said “sir, yes sir”. When my horse anticipated the change and tried to suddenly rush through it, R shut him down. The point was to get the horse, who anticipates so much, to understand that he can’t take over. Taking over is not an option. He has to listen. And he has to do what he’s told to do. Each time the horse totally screwed up a change attempt, R immediately brought him to walk, corrected what he refused to do, and explained/reinforced the aid at the walk. R is a very fair trainer. He thought there was an element of him ignoring aids, not thinking he had to actually try, and me not getting on him for ignoring the aids. Yep, that’s true given our history and his hypervigilance.

This guy knows us very well for the last, oh, 10 years.

He’s very fair with horses and rides so many different kinds. For example, has a very expensive dressage horse in for ground work and starting right now (I watched his first ride yesterday) and an older barrel racer. He offered to ride him again in a couple of weeks, largely because he didn’t feel like he could explain everything very well because he does so much by feel. He then offered to help me on another day to do his preparation and use his approach. I’m very grateful.

In my case, I know I cut him too much slack and he takes advantage of it. Soooooo, it seems like the vaquero approach worked to get my horse to assemble his feet in the flying change plus really understand that he actually has to listen to the rider’s aids. I have to learn to “enforce” the aids and there are consequences for when he doesn’t listen. What I mean by that is if I give clear aids, he doesn’t get to ignore them because not listening is easier for him (I call him Mr. 90% with trainers). I have to really reinforce what I’m asking for and then try again. “Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard”.

I think I trained flying changes in easier horses in the past. This guy is athletic enough to do them but mentally like “ahhh, that’s too much work”.

Who knows. But after watching R get clean changes in both direction in my bridle but a western saddle, I thought “Hmmmmmmmmmmm” :joy: :joy:

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@J-Lu based on how you describe the anticipation behaviors etc., this video might be useful to you.

https://youtu.be/3tPKidqexxA

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Updating to say I had a really helpful clinic pinpoint our straightness issues left lead - nothing revolutionary in the advice (renvers positioning) but the way he got us into that alignment/ connected correctly on the outside contact with the left shoulders in front unlocked a canter I’ve never felt on her before. It’s hard to keep but no doubt in my mind this is how we fix the tricky change.

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That reminds me of my old barrel racing neighbours. Having a chat one day and she sayd, all of our horses do clean changes at 3 years old. English people wait until their horse is like 12 to start, its the weirdest thing.

I just laughed, she wasn’t wrong!

We can really learn from other disciplines if we just open our minds a bit!

Ooooooooo, what a great video! Thanks for posting that! Many excellent pointers that might really help me. I’ll have to try some elements of that tomorrow or Sunday.

Thanks again!

Welp, I tried the exercises today. It’s actually quite similar to what cnm suggested upthread and what I have been working on, except this exercise utilizes canter leg yield rather than half-pass. The trainer who got the changes the other day started with this but had to add directionality to get a clean change.

I dragged the arena last night and could ride by the lines. Interestingly, when I first rode the centerline haunches in left, my horse drifted right and when I tried to correct that shoulder, his head went up and legs went flying. He remembered and freakishly anticipated. I said “calm down” and we did some transitions and he got on the aids again. Canter haunches in with straight shoulders, check. Then, we went right, did a nice leg yield to the right, haunches in left and I got a really nice change. In front. I turned left. Rinse, repeat. The leg-yields turned into half-passes-he remembered the last exercises we did, and continued to do nice changes in front. I kept the aids on - nada. We did a 10m circle cross cantering just fine. I noticed he was bearing down on his shoulders so lifted my hands to lift the shoulders like R showed me. Nope. We did a volte to try and force the change and he fell to a trot. Of note, he didn’t rush the changes or transitions like he did before. We ended on a nice run of the exercises without asking for the change. He was a sweaty mess after not a long ride, but that’s largely because he has been growing his winter coat and it was 80 degrees here today.

Tomorrow, I might do the same but with R’s comments, such as stopping when he misses and really working the haunches to show him what is expected at the walk. I like the idea of removing the directionality from the aids, but I think I might need that and can remove the directionality later when he gets what he’s supposed to do.

He can do tempis in his pasture-he runs alot so I’ve seen them.

sigh

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There is a great segment on The Dressage Radio Show…47 minutes in if you want to skip ahead. Jane Hannigan is the trainer and she talks about making mistakes, straightness and changes. It’s a great reminder of what happens in the process of teaching changes.

If he does them naturally at liberty, there’s some influence you have that’s not allowing the correct answer of a full change.

Have you had someone jump him through a small gymnastic or line and turn off the lead he landed on just before the rail and see if he changes? Often the “jump canter” and frame allows the right balance for the change.

With all the preparation, moving the hips and shoulders, transitions, etc. and then you ask and he doesn’t offer or only gives the front, have you tried a lot of forward canter in the warmup to a “surprise” change? Also, don’t prepare forever or prepare and then wait, do a 2-3 step preparation and then change. I had to count out loud for a while “3-2-1 change” to keep myself from holding and waiting past the moment of balance.

With a chronic late behind change off the hind leg that liked to sit (generally horses have one hind that likes to sit/stay grounded and one that likes to push), I had to over correct the straightness and then tap the new inside hind to get it off the ground faster. For the left to right change, I would push the hips more left than I thought and then tap the right hip right before I switched my legs and hips. I had to get brave about using the whip because we’d have some leaping and then anticipation. If he got a clean change, I’d either walk right away or lengthen the reins into a stretchy canter. I wanted it to be super clear that even with leaping/excitement, if he got the right answer he got to take a break.

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Thank you!

I’m sure there is something I’m doing that is blocking him. But my dressage trainer can’t get them either. R got them but he really used the fence to get clean changes. I’m planning to take time off around Thanksgiving and will see if he could ride him again and then, another day, help me.

I’ve jumped him through gymnastics and small jumps, as well as cantering over a pole. He absolutely can follow through correctly depending on the lead I asked for but got blasted on this thread early on for teaching him to change late behind with a pole. I might go back to this because it’s not “forcing the issue”. My horse is very spooky but also lazy. He will ignore your aids if you do something at a different point in the ride or a different place in the arena. He’d say “we don’t do that here/now, you must be wrong”. He’d next offer something on his own, saying “we did this here yesterday, so here you go”. I honestly think in addition to me, there’s a mental block on his part. I know that sounds weird but he’s super smart, super reactive, super routine-loving and super anticipatory.

I usually do a forward canter in the warmup and work. I honestly can’t stand when he sucks back for a change and so try to make them forward. I don’t let him suck back in the above leg-yield or half-pass to the change even though he tries because he knows what’s coming up. I had to disconnect those two movements. Sometimes, though, the sucking back can help a bit with his learning difficult things because it makes the movement slow enough that he can mentally think about and get it. Then we do it more forward. He can get mentally upset when things come at him too fast mentally and then his head goes up in the air and gets tense. Sometimes he’ll bolt when he’s mentally upset.

More spontaneity on my part might very well help. I will try that, thank you.

I’ll try your last paragraph! Yes, he’s already half-heartedly bucked when my trainer and me (separately) used the whip. There’s a fine line with what you can do when he’s upset (he’s had 3/5 trainers go to the hospital in his lifetime). I’ve worked with him on the ground that if I tap his thigh with the whip, he’ll lift that hind leg. Maybe I can use two whips and teach him to lift that hind leg when I tap his hip.

Yep, previous horses who got their first change, I immediately get off and praise. I’ll certainly do the same with him! Mr. 90% will associate (as I usually try to teach) doing the right thing with easy and the wrong thing with more work (within reason). I will jump off after a good change and a few strides of stretchy canter and praise him and loosen his topline (which I always do right when I dismount).

Thank you for your comments!!! I will wait a few rides before trying the changes again to get his brain on other things, but will try your suggestions next.

I don’t think the “jumping canter” comment meant to change over the jump or poles. Just that if you are not getting enough forward and push, landing off a jump effort can get you into that more rolling canter from which the horse might find it easier to change. And he will understand doing it with the change in direction. You will also need to be in a lighter seat which might mean you are prevented from doing whatever you are doing to block him, unintentionally.

Once he figures out he can change behind with a rider then you go back and try to associate a cue for the change on the flat.

I’ve done it by putting a gymnastic on the center line and then riding straight and just turning whichever way would be needed to do the change. If they start rushing, you turn to stay on true lead for a bit then go back to asking for a change. But more likely you’ll need to keep riding forward as you ride straight to keep that jumping canter.

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I easily get a change over a small jump or gymnastics on the centerline. Or poles on the centerline. I’m not 100% sure of what you’re saying. I evented and did Jr. Jumpers previously and can certainly ride the jumps. I always have a lighter seat when he makes a jump effort. My goal is for him not to make a jump effort but jusp pick up his legs.

I don’t think I fully understand what you’re saying. Can you explain to me with different words? I’m sorry!!! I got killed on this thread for using jumping efforts to train changes. With this horse, rushing means stopping, maybe backing and not continuing. Rushing is not acceptable and is counter-productive to the schooling. He doesn’t get to take over during the ride,

Thanks!!!

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I do not want to step on toes at all-- but read this again. When’s the last time you worked with a different trainer for a bit?

Oh sure, I welcome such stuff!!!

I’ve been working with this trainer somewhat infrequently for about 8-12 months. I work with area trainers rather infrequently. R, the vaquero guy, had him in training and partial training for something like a year maybe 8 years ago. He’s worked with him here and there and I’ve done clinics with him here and there since.

R got them with very short reins and not having the horse working over the back. My horse understood some of his aids, but not all of them. But he specialized in “problem horses/young horses” and has excellent reflexes. I don’t ride with such short reins and have the horse reaching over the back to the bit. R is a heck of alot stronger than I am with spiked spurs. I want him to accept the aids for changes while being round and on the bit. Sure, I could throw that away at the very first but I want him to do changes on the aids.

I once had an outside rider do a training ride on him that was informative. I could try this route again. He has a problematic local reputation. It won’t help me much if I can’t be there for the ride. He needs his routine to be most happy.

Do you have suggestions? Please lay them out and don’t worry about toes!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The exercise suggested was to change AFTER the jump, not landing a certain lead. Use the good canter you’d use for jumping, with the horse hopefully landing nice and forward, then ride straight and then ask for a change to whatever lead you are not already on. Or, set a gymnastic where you trot in but the out effort is enough to get you landing in a good canter away.

Your guy seems to be able to do an awful lot of small canter things while cross cantering and counter cantering, so the idea is to go more forward and to have the change come up more naturally like he would do on his own out in the field. Just another exercise to put into the mix.

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We showed this past weekend and the large powder keg pony managed to do a clean change and then a change that was late on Saturday in Third 3 so at least no skip a change. We came in 2nd with a 63 and change. On Sunday, though, I had less pony and he threw in one skip a change and a late change (surprisingly we still had a 61 and change at the end and came in 2nd for the amateurs (third overall in a large class). So, while I’m on vacation next week the stout (re: overweight and is on a diet) welsh cob is going to my trainer’s for a week to continue his exercise/training regimen. I told her that I don’t expect any miracles but I’m hoping she gets an idea/plan put together on how I can get quicker to prevent the skip a change. He’s so darn quick that he can pop them in before I even realize it. I really think he just needs to get stronger because I can produce a clean change with a clear jump when I collect him up until the stride before the request and then really push him through it with enough forward (and keeping him through and keeping him supple, yada yada) so I know it’s me just being too slow, not strong enough at the right time and a pony that is smarter than I am. He just knows his way is so much more efficient, why would I want or expect anything else?? :wink:

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My point was sort of that if your trainer AND you can’t get them, and you work together… well, maybe there’s some tension in your body or something you’re holding or your timing isn’t there, and she can’t fix it because she doesn’t see it or is ignorant of the problem. What does your trainer say about the problem? “Sorry, your horse is hopeless!” I hope not.

I don’t know what kind of guy you have, but most of the horses I’ve trained changes on are more up-and-down types than big warmbloods. So very agile and smart in the collection, but have a real tendency for anticipating and getting “stuck.” One horse I had had been trained to piaffe in-hand as a youngster and would just piaffe in hopes of being rewarded any time he was minorly agitated. The changes were very “short” and not through the back. The thing that unlocked them was really galloping for a bit. Out of the long time, across the diagonal, a couple of strides on the short side. We did them on three-loop serpentines before ever across the diagonal. Exaggerate the bend in, gallop a few strides, change, and really bend the other way. Yes, you’re cheating by using the wall a bit. The change is going to be ugly, but it should be forward.

You may have already tried this; it’s not a novel idea, but you mentioned you have a horse that likes to anticipate and can do a lot of the collected work in counter canter. A trainer I clinic with somewhat regularly starts changes with/before counter canter for this reason. So, get out of the collected work and get out of counter canter.

There’s also the snowman exercise, with is a favorite of mine for solving almost anything that’s ailing you.

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@J-Lu this is what I meant. I also see a lot of decent changes going down a simple line of 2 jumps set at about 3-4 strides apart that is close to the rail and if the horse lands in the “wrong lead” for the turn, a lot of them will naturally change as they make the turn through the short end.

Also, watch your horse do them at liberty and take note of his speed, length of stride, height of the neck, position of the nose, and at what point in changing directions does he change. Try to replicate the conditions where he changes at liberty under saddle and see if that helps.

I would consider sending him to a jump trainer that trains clean changes for like 30 days and get him super confirmed.

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Procrastination leads to boring flying change hell support group update

Months ago I decided I needed to go back to fix some holes in basic training. Holes may be an understatement. Craters? Yes, craters is more appropriate. Thankfully, that rehab allowed for a LOT of work to be done in walk. Thankfully? Yeah, horse had another couple of URIs this summer + summer allergies. There were days we barely walked.

Anyway, I’m finally back to doing a bit of work and building some fitness and starting to add in lateral work, more canter, etc. Although I haven’t asked for changes yet (ok, maybe I sneaked one in each way a few days ago and got them, but they weren’t lovely) I’ve started doing some of the prep work and exercises (LY, haunches in, changes of bend, etc.) along with a couple of good long side gallops each day.

Result? All the exercises are MUCH easier and more balanced since going back to square one and starting to fill in the craters coffee spoonful by coffee spoonful. For those that may not know, a coffee spoon is smaller than a teaspoon by far. lol Also, some of the craters appear to be bottomless :rofl:

I am worried about heading indoors for the winter since my horse is not a fan of indoors and the indoor is not large, but I’m feeling better that we will be able to keep up the prep work over the winter even if we can’t actually work on changes.

This post brought to you by my heartfelt thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread. I really think it’s one of the best and most informative/helpful threads ever on the dressage forum :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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