Flying Change Hell Support Group

[the_sandiest_shoes]

On my mare’s skip a change, I really correct her now. I’m trying to make it clear to her it’s NOT what I want and I’m trying to super learn the feel of how she tries to brace to do it before changing and then abandon the aid with a circle or counter canter.

We are starting to get more consistent no-skip clean changes. They are not pretty but anything at this point to reprogram. The holes in our canter strength are apparent and a continual work in progress.

All the strength building in general with this canter stuff has really been impressive in building her butt and shoulders. The trot she gives me now is unreal. Hoping to do another third year in 2023 with scores in the 70s if we can keep this up (I’ll move her up once the changes are completely seamless, someday I hope). Behold her big canter booty:

[J-Lu]

Got it! Thanks for the explanation!!

[J-Lu]

Thanks!! The vaquero trainer had a hard time with them, too, but he is 6’1" and rides problem horses for a living. His timing is 1000x better than mine!! I’ve been working with this trainer here and there for about a year and she’s not comfy really coming down on him yet. He has a history and I can’t blame her.

No, she thinks strengthening the hind end, easy leg yields in both directions in the canter, isolating the front end and the hind end will help and we’ve been doing that. One issue I have is my horse anticipating so much. “oh, up centerline? we must be leg yielding in this direction” and he just does it when I don’t ask for it. I shake things up all the time re: movements and he seems to get perplexed and frustrated when he’s not “right” and I correct him. I can harshly correct him when he’s blowing through the aids and he’ll listed for a time or two. But then he’ll try super-hard to do again what he just did if I ask for something else. He’s not a great listener but is a great participant. Does that make sense?

He’s only 16.2 and is a light warmblood. Full sib to DSF Farscape.

We always start the canter work with a medium down the long side and when he anticipates that, I do collected work on the long side and mediums on the short side or circle or diagonal. Places he doesn’t expect it.

I’ll try your suggestion of really bending, asking for forward, changing and then really bending. My trainer is really having me work on bend and I’m really doing that work.

Yes, some others have mentioned somewhere that establishing the CC too much can prevent a horse from learning changes. I tried changes before his CC was well established. Fail. I used CC much to balance his canter in hopes of training changes. I don’t ride CC much anymore but he sure remembers it.

Of note, I was able to get clean changes when he was younger, very hot, and when I was desensitizing him by riding at QH shows. If he picked up the wrong lead, he was mentally “up” (read: hot) enough to do the flying change when the judge wasn’t looking. He wasn’t really thinking, he was just reacting. I think he’s overthinking much now and I honestly think he’s being honest most of the time. That said, he’s also lazy. He’s a very quirky horse.

i appreciate your explanations!!

[J-Lu]

Thank you!!

I guarantee you my horse will not naturally change if he lands on the wrong lead because he knows counter canter.

I have watched him at liberty. They usually happen when he is “hot and bothered” (that happens frequently if he can’t see his run-in buddy (buddy is out of the pasture or it is dark). His head is up in the air, neck up, tail up, etc. That inverted position is not something I want to replicate in his training and I actively work at getting him to use his back and relax. He’s Third-ish Fourth-ish level and he just doesn’t go that way under saddle. But in the pasture, hells yes!

I wouldn’t want to send him to a jump trainer, I think, because he’s trained in dressage. The aids/seat are different and I think that would just add his apparent confusion/overthinking.

[J-Lu]

OOooH! I’ll try to get a good pic of my horse and his bootie as well!

[blue_heron]

@J-Lu

I know that sounds weird but he’s super smart, super reactive, super routine-loving and super anticipatory.

I had two of these. One big WB bred for the hunters and one small PRE. Loved them both but I do believe they both had a smidge of horsey autism. Both nearly killed me in unrelated incidents; one had moments of being not “there” where he was just not thinking about what you were telling him or where you were in relation to him on the ground. He went fourth level with a very competent junior. The other was the one that would piaffe whenever he got frustrated. He would have complete meltdowns after suddenly deciding that the thing we’d done 1000x before was suddenly not okay anymore, and if he spooked or got frustrated the ride was over; his brain was a puddle of mush. He could do all the pieces of the GP independently but trying to string them together with more than a few one tempis in a row or the PPP transititions blew his little mind. Neither of my trainers at the time would get on him. I’m not entirely sure what happened to him. He should have been a private sale with disclosure, blah blah blah.

Two things that have worked for my guys:

1. Make the work harder. Or, if you can’t introduce new things, raise the expectations of the other stuff significantly. I think with one of mine one of my big issues was making the changes the big hill to climb. Then, we decided we were going to focus on the pirouettes. Come off the wall at M/K/H/F, 10 m half circle like in the 4th level tests, school the half pirouette, and then go into the other half 10 m 1/2 circle in teeny tiny collected canter back toward the wall. Ask for change somewhere on the second half of the 10 m circle. Then you can use the wall and the horse should already be carrying behind. Of course, you have to have the strength for the half pirouettes, but the point is that the piros should be harder than the change.

2. The trainer I was a working student for trained her changes and then tempis on the long lines. Her GP stallion could get the 17 across the diagonal in the GP test up the long side of the arena while she just walked briskly behind him. She really liked the “Let them figure it out themselves first,” concept. If your horse doesn’t long line this might not be worth the investment, but if he does it’s an idea.

[J-Lu]

Thank you!!!

I’m raising the expectations of everything else but he’s not thrilled with that. Too bad, but he’s reacting to that. He’s actually very good with working pirouettes and 10 m half circles and throws them into the work. I can’t criticize him for throwing in the work and say “thanks but I didn’t ask for that”. He’d rather do the half pirouette than the change. And his half pirouette is really good. Buddy boy can sit with these exercises. But gets all confused with changing the hind legs for the changes. I don’t really get it. I can change him from cross firing in front back to true canter…

Ugghh.

[Bogey2]

The changes you see at liberty in the field are not tempi changes…they are more like a hunter change tossed in because they are out of balance. A tempi change is built upon straightness and timing, if you want to get more than one this is how you have to think of them. I work with trainer who could put a change on a cow LOL. When it’s difficult for the horse she dissects the reason taking into consideration there horses ability and back tracks with different exercises.

[theresak]

@J-Lu

That inverted position is not something I want to replicate in his training and I actively work at getting him to use his back and relax. He’s Third-ish Fourth-ish level and he just doesn’t go that way under saddle. But in the pasture, hells yes!

I wouldn’t want to send him to a jump trainer, I think, because he’s trained in dressage. The aids/seat are different and I think that would just add his apparent confusion/overthinking.

I’m sorry but if he can’t do a clean change how you normally ride him but can in the pasture, raise his poll, poke the nose out, fire him up and get a clean change under saddle. Then fix the throughness later. You need to fix his response to your change aid before you layer in the rest of the complexity like maintaining collection, staying connected, etc.

And a very good jump trainer is not going ruin a dressage horse. I ride with an event trainer who fixed my chronic late behind change. I trained through the GP with him watching and helping me.

[blue_heron]

I agree with this, especially if cowboy guy is getting them. Either he genuinely doesn’t understand the aid, you’re blocking him in some way, or he’s uncomfortable. Not something one can evaluate over the Internet, but there’s no shame in sending him to “boot camp” for a week with a well-recommended professional.

[J-Lu]

Welp, The cowboy guy was at the barn when I rode today and he helped me with changes. (Oh, they weren’t pretty with the cowboy guy but he got them, sometimes late).

He talked me through his recommendations. I tried once and buddy boy was late behind and cowboy guy suggested a use a stronger leg and whip to enforce things. We tried again and I didn’t think he changed behind but cowboy guy thought he did. Horse was very squirrely in the attempt and I smacked his outside leg with the whip (to enforce what didn’t feel like a change to me). Horse bucked hard and I got unseated and hung on until a soft part of the arena and them bailed. Got back on and tried two more times. Horse was late but switched behind when he spooked at cowboy guy’s dog. I praised and got off.

Cowboy guy thinks he can cross-fire for days in a small circle and thinks he’s blowing me off and that I really have to enforce the aids. He says I’m using my legs and I really need to start using my spurs. ANd the fence, but he didn’t have me use it as harshly as he did. My trainer thinks he’s blowing me off, too. I know he’s blowing me off sometimes but really hate landing in the dirt.

Will try again this weekend.

I don’t know of a trainer who will take a horse for a week to put flying changes on and I really don’t have the money to send him out for a month or more while holding my place here. I don’t think a good jump trainer will ruin a dressage horse, they simply use different aids. I had a great event rider ride him when he was young for a short while.

At fall shots, I had my vet, certified in acupuncture and chiro, do work on him to see if he had physical issues with the flying changes. All she found was very tight pecs, hence my girth thread.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

These days I ride mine with rowels and use the piaffe whip on her back legs for the changes - it lets me tap her hocks without losing my seat or connection.

Got a decent change today on the bad side (with a slight brace pause but no actual leg skip) by doing counter canter on a 20 m circle, changing the bend (so renvers on circle), tap tap tickle hock without letting her speed up, then change.

[IPEsq]

If the horse doesn’t want to change leads because he knows counter canter, to me, that’s a problem. Equitation horses can land a jump and hold the counter canter because they know what it means when their rider tells them to do that. And a good eq horse won’t have an “auto” change but will wait for the rider’s cue and should be able to change just about anywhere, including to the counter lead or some basic (3 or 4 time) tempis. But what should be natural for a horse landing in a forward canter and needing to turn in one direction but they had landed the other lead, is to want to change leads. Sure, when horses get ripping around they crosscanter and all kinds of things on their own, but in general, they should want to change even if they are perfectly capable of holding the counter canter.

It’s a problem if the counter canter is so confirmed that they would not think about changing leads unless you gave aids to hold on the counter canter. One reason I like to teach the basics of the change early then work on counter canter and more throughness later. But the idea with trying some jumps or working in a different starting canter would be that it should maybe make a little more sense to the horse to do the change.

A trainer that’s good with changes is good with changes no matter if their primary discipline is h/j, eventing, dressage, reining, whatever. This horse might need an expert changes installer to get over this hump.

[J-Lu]

Hear ya, loud and clear. Thanks!!

[J-Lu]

Welp, the cowboy guy had a 3-day Advanced Horsemanship clinic at the barn. I was there for most of it because I farm-sat and I knew most of the people in it and some auditors so it was so fun. They prepared for his way of teaching the changes and by today, most people were able to get a flying change (actually, a lead swap mostly but swaps anyway), including the Florida Cracker and the late 3-year old QH.

Those two got their changes by riding very forward, note to I think @Manni01. The Florida Cracker has a go button that is always depressed it seems and mostly galloped through the changes. “Slowing down” was and has been their task at all of the clinics and he’s super hot!! It was humbling to see this horse get the changes (I’ve known the owner and this horse for years. He is NOT an easy ride but she’s a USDA veterinarian and loves him to death). The others didn’t need to be so forward.

I did what they did when I rode during lunch and my horse was sort of tired because the footing got really deep with so many horses riding in the post-rain arena (even though dragged nightly). My horse was forward until he got to the spot where I changed the bend in the trot (he knew what was coming) and didn’t even try in both directions.

sigh

I learned a bunch of different approaches and the Cowboy guy agreed to work with us. He doesn’t think I’m blocking him. He thinks my horse is ignoring me and the work. I have to find my longer prince edward spurs. He thinks my longer knob-end Herm Springers are rather useless. I used to do clinics with eventer Wendy Wergeles who said the same thing. She said “these are like me poking my finger in his side. Does the horse care? No.” I’ll also consider roweled spurs. I haven’t used harsher spurs on this horse because of his tendencies, but I clearly need more leg reinforcement and he needs encouragement to stay over his back. But again, it’s a fine line since I came off the other night by really enforcing my aids with the whip when he didn’t change behind.

Man, if the hyper Florida Cracker can learn changes, why can’t we??? (I know why because this guy can move his feet here, there and here again at lightening speed, to the joy and dismay of his owner).

sigh

[the_sandiest_shoes]

Today the first change I asked for on the tricky direction was clean, no skip! Did one on the good side that was great as usual and no more changes for the day.

Our prep was renvers, forward, renvers, forward, turned on the short diagonal and two strides in I pushed her rib cage left and tapped the right hock while asking and voila - big hind separation and clean without any pause or bracing. Fast and abrupt but we are legit starting to get somewhere with the deprogramming, hallelujah

[MsM]

I am back to thinking about FCs after a break. Between my health issues and life in general, we had put them on the shelf. When we left, I could get a usually clean change in one direction when doing a particular exercise. The other direction was buck/scurry/change or no change and a braced counter canter.

Instructor had me working on improving his canter and flexibility in the canter. I tried in his good direction and have gotten one late and one fairly good change - importantly without bracing or trying to run off.

When analyzing, I am trying to improve my timing. I get the theory of when in the stride he is able to change correctly. What I struggle with is when I need to think about giving the aid to allow for me to process and do it and then him to process and do it!

[Jealoushe]

@MsM

I am trying to improve my timing. I get the theory of when in the stride he is able to change correctly. What I struggle with is when I need to think about giving the aid to allow for me to process and do it and then him to process and do it!

Timing/counting is what is really helping me learn changes. I have no experience with them and neither does my horse but she can do them from when she raced.

I learned from Carl Hester about counting strides across the diagonal and learning how many strides your horse typically would take from letter to letter. This works for me because it’s a lot like counting when jumping. I practiced just cantering across the diagonal or short diagonal and counting the strides. Then I practiced my timing to ask for the change and preparation, this is an idea I heard on a podcast. So canter across the diagonal or straight line and count (for me 4 strides before I ask) - 1, 2, 3, 4, then I do one stride neutral leg position so legs at the sides even, me straight etc and I count “straight”, then the next stride is asking for the change and I count “change”. So “1, 2, 3, 4, straight, change”. I would practice this many times before actually asking for the change. Just practicing in my mind.

I found this helped me sooo much with timing my aids and we are both starting to get it. Last ride we practiced the change we had 1 clean change each direction and they were not crazy exuberant or bucking which is our normal issue. She changes, but she does BIG exuberant ones. I think the pattern and preparation for both her and I really helps. For her, she loves knowing what is coming, gives her confidence. Once we become more schooled in the timing we can start to change things up a bit more.

Not sure if this would work for everyone but it helped me!

[Knubbsy]

Last week we officially moved from “prep for flying change” life to “green flying change”. And they are really green, but because we’ve taken the last two months to really work on getting her back up and helping her realize her neck doesn’t have to act as a cantilever, my trainer thinks it won’t be too bad getting true changes. She’s felt really, really lovely lately which makes me worried we’re about to hit a roadblock also a bigger problem will be me and getting my body to cooperate (I already over-prepare for simple changes).

[J-Lu]

I went back into longer Prince Charles spurs on the advice of the Vaquero trainer. He seems to use his back more and soooooo much more respected them in his side when he randomly spooked. He didn’t seem to care much about my shorter spurs and leg in his side. He seems to care now. He’s taken to them well, and that could have gone either way.