Flying Change Hell Support Group

[EventerAJ]

Why is the L to R change so much harder for many horses??

I may finally be seeing a glimmer of light at the end of the long, dark, L-R change tunnel. We did two late changes yesterday with and without bucking, and two today…and I -think- the last one was clean. Our hole seems to be controlling the right shoulder, he wants to fall out (overbend left) which prevents the hind from coming through. Of course he also has had a mental block with just the concept of L-R: not trying at all, swapping only in front (sometimes with great elevation in front), then skip changing hind 3 strides later (or never). I’ve tried asking harder, softer, quieter with my body, throwing my weight… he’s not stupid, he knows I’m asking for SOMETHING but he couldn’t quite figure it out. It makes him a little upset and frustrated, so I don’t drill it.

Yesterday I finally set him up really straight, controlled the shoulder, asked and popped him with the whip on the left…and got an honest (if angry and acrobatic) attempt at a change. Long rein, big pats, ears up, he started to understand. Tried again, he started to get worried and swapped in front before I could ask (anticipating the whip). Calmly circled, tried again, felt him start to bunny hop and I gave aids to change, and we ended up on the right lead a stride later. Was it late behind? Maybe. But it was a coordinated effort showing he was starting to understand, so we quit for the day.

Today we did a lot of simple changes, 3 strides canter, 2 steps walk, 3 strides canter, on quarter lines and through corners. Focus on straightness and light off the seat. Did several nice R-L changes, some anticipating but straight, soft and clean. Asked for L-R change, some anxiety, tension and swapped in front only. No punishment or frustration, just walk, canter left, and try again. He managed one hoppy, stiff L-R change, and immediately his ears went up, I gave him a pat and walked. I debated whether to quit for the day, or try one more (“just one more” is often the kiss of death!). Did a R-L change, came across diagonal for L-R, and I probably held too much but he did it! I think all 4 legs hit the ground simultaneously, but technically that’s not late, right? Big praise, long rein, he instantly walked with ears pricked and marched proudly away. I think he’s getting it! Of course progress is not linear (this is FC Hell, after all) so tomorrow may be a lot worse before it gets better.

[J-Lu]

He could get clean changes, as I mentioned, but was flustered. Dressage trainer is relatively new and is afraid to enforce changes with this horse. He’s learning much good, as outlined in my previous posts. He’s strong/supple enough to pull off a flying change.

[CvB_id]

I know this is unorthodox, but have you tried cavaletti or ground poles. I once rode a tremendously athletic Hannoverian gelding who had approx ZERO excuses as to not “get” the flying change (outside of being exquisitely stubborn) as in turnout he’d do tempis likely as a burn to me lol…. First started asking over very small cavaletti & then the poles; this helped him to understand, or at least concede to, my “requests”.

*this may have already come as a suggestion though I admit I’ve not read through all of the comments

I’m sorry you’re struggling with this btw, but encourage you to not self deprecate…even in jest…everyone is mediocre relative to another out there. You’re putting in the effort, being realistic with your mare’s conformational “shortcomings” (though I’ve seen plenty of more downhill built reiners & pleasure horses change leads in a way of ease that ends me in a place of envy) & are reaching out for ideas. Perhaps the cavaletti will provide enough “air” to get the change through & your mount will then begin to translate your aids more efficiently

Good luck & most importantly, have fun!!

[endlessclimb]

Right on, then keep on keeping on! I’m sure eventually you’ll find what works for him.

[J-Lu]

Thanks for describing your experience!

My horse is very good at picking up the correctly asked lead from the walk on the rail, quarlines and centerline. He gets the aids in those situations. I’ll very much consider the rest of your post.

Thanks!

[exvet]

Ah thanks and no worries in terms of the misery loves company confession…it is what it is. I have no doubt we’ll finally master the changes and even move on from there. As we all know it can be frustrating, the journey of course and trying to unlock the code so-to-speak. I do think that mobilizing the shoulders and hind end is a component to finding the key and I’m continuing to work on that aspect of setting up for the change as well. It’s funny that you mention that “it has to feel miserable to him to cross-canter” because my coach is emphatic that Junior must realize that he too must feel miserable in order to offer the right answer or any answer other than the skip-a-change. She also insisted that I train a new FC aid so that we can get past his insistence that ‘he’s got this and the ground bound skip a change is certainly what I want.’ I’ve been trying to do so but one thing she finally said that I think is helping us get that accomplished is she said, You need to approach the FC and aid for it much like you would a fence and finding THAT spot. She knows my background. So, ya know what? That’s exactly what I’ve been doing, counting strides, pushing him forward as opposed to collecting him and pretending that where I want the FC is just like me riding him to the spot for take-off and I have always taken a huge inhale when I hit the base of my take off for a jump…this is what is getting him to leap and make some sort of change of lead in the air. It’s currently ugly and more dramatic than I’d like but it’s not the skip a change. I’m not teaching him to change over jumps or poles because I am afraid that it will make a late change but I am trying to get him to connect the dots regarding changing in the air and then we’ll clean it up from there. If I don’t seem to be getting anywhere in a few weeks well then the jumps will get drug back out and we’ll do some more true flying before going back to flying changes. I look at it as developing more tools for the toolbox though I don’t really anticipate too many more ‘new’ horses in my future. Still if I can’t get it one way, I’ll get it another. This guy is capable and too talented to give it up yet I think it’s likely your journey though it may not be exactly parallel to mine is simply going to require more time and a similar, don’t lose the forest for the trees sort of approach and chipping away at the pieces of the set up and making it the only reasonable option in his mind - to make a clean change. Good luck!

[CanteringCarrot]

We’ve had this convo before on this thread, but you couldn’t pay me enough to teach a horse a flying change over a pole. More times than not, it creates a late change (front changes, then back, and not a true and through back to front change). Fixing a late change can be a real pain in the arse. Been through it once, and don’t wish to do it again LOL

@exvet your use of jumps is interesting though!

[IPEsq]

There’s a glimmer of a real change coming in the 5 yo, at least the R to L. He can get both changes cleanly, but that typically involves some hand gallop (HA HA HA gallop is not in his vocabulary) and then a strong boot with the outside leg farther back than I’d like without even thinking of anything that might slow him down (like a half halt). So of course changes in the indoor are impossible. Until now. And like we can move sideways and move haunches around and whatnot before the ask without killing the forward. And my leg can be in a more normal place. I can’t practice every day, but it’s getting where it is looking like a repeatable event. The L to R will take more work to do this way, so we are still on simple changes indoors. Thankfully, he seems to naturally want to make them clean if he gets them done at all.

Meanwhile, the rehabbing almost 11 year old is still throwing FLYING changes all over the place some days. Particularly in multiples. Or my new favorite trick (not!), flying change to the counter lead while trying to make a circle…even though I’m pretty sure we aren’t actually strong enough for real counter canter yet. But hey, he also did some canter poles for the first time in a year and felt really normal. Like, maybe he can jump again one day. Which he would be thrilled to do.

[Mersidoats]

@CvB_id - Thank you for your very kind reply! I actually found a back door out of flying change hell… by not continuing to flog the changes.

I took a long look at this sweet little mare and decided that she doesn’t need to have a flying change. She is a wonderful 2nd level horse that is very happy helping her new rider learn connection, lateral work, and how to sit a “big” trot. She is getting older, and I’d rather her do lower level work. She’s a pro at shows and gives a big confidence boost to re-riders and beginner riders. We are both very happy not trying to get a dressage change.

My young horse has a big, expressive natural change and a lovely canter. We’ll come back to FCH in a year or two.

[MsM]

Maybe we are in limbo now? Started playing with asking for changes about a year ago. Horse got the idea r-l though not through and sometimes late behind. On the other rein he just braced and tried to run. So instructor and i decided to work on other things to improve our chances. Then I was out of the saddle for 3 months and had to ease back into riding.

Having gotten his left lead canter more adjustable, I decided to see what we had now. Right to left he tends to leap in front, so not really “flying” change but done within one stride. On the right to left I could stop him bracing and running, so he decided to throw in one trot step to get to the other lead. I was pleased that he had the idea at least. With a bit more encouragement, I got a change similar to the other side.

I have a lesson soon (instructor didnt go to Florida this year! Yay!)
But in the meantime, I am wondering if my timing of the aids is off. Do you time your aids for a particular part of the canter stride?

[exvet]

As one who is still in the depths of hell, I will share a new exercise that we started today. It was VERY telling in terms of where our weaknesses are. I’ve been told numerous times by more than one trainer that my horse has good basics and is politely obedient. Initially I took that as a compliment. Now I know it’s a back handed one that may predict our plateau.

As for the exercise, it’s perfecting the corners. We started with walking along the long wall and as we approached the letter before the corner, I was told to halt with seat but especially with the half-halt on the outside rein, establish true bend and then walk through the corner. Just as my horse’s front legs hit the next wall I was to use both legs to ask for forward. We rinsed and repeated this in each corner, both directions and then in each gait. So if in trot, before the corner use the seat and half halt to come down to walk and trot out of the corner, if in canter, trot before the corner and exit in canter - all with the emphasis of half halt with the outside rein (TO SIT) and then exit while using both legs to get the horse to produce impulsion (get him to push off of the hind) and get the horse in front of my legs. If all the ingredients are there, you proceed through the corner. If not, you halt or don’t do the corner being very exacting, very black and white. Eventually you move on to maintaining the gait through the corner and use the half halts to collect the gait and then move out of the corner in the medium or extended of the same gait.

Our hole, my horse can either sit OR push but has great difficulty in doing both in succession (he gets stuck) and this my friends is our defect or impediment that presents a true flying change.

So now I have my homework. We’ll see if in two weeks we’re given the green light to go back to attempting the flying change.

[yaya]

Side note: After seeing the title of this thread, I was just skimming the program guide on TV, and read the movie name “Hall Pass Nightmare” as “Half Pass Nightmare”

[jdm]

i have to admit i haven’t read any replies.

walk-shoulder-foreR-walk-shoulder-foreL-walk
that’s your starting point.

walk-canter-walk-countercanter-walk-canter
that’s your second step.

from there, i’ve never had any horses (dozens) of any age/breed/size etc not understand exactly what I wanted and offer a change when I then asked for walk-canter-walk, counter canter-straighten, half halt-give-ask for change

[RJC]

@exvet

As some others have shared, it’s easy to scratch your head and wonder where it’s all gone wrong and question one’s ability,

@exvet, I’ve been following and appreciating your posts as my horse’s attitude and build seem very similar to yours. If only I had your seat.

We’ve spent a ton of time working on strength building in canter and correcting his tendency to fall out the left shoulder and mine to let it happen. I’m also started to realize how much of a problem it is that he’s become reluctant to both sit AND push forward since I started to ask for deeper sit. I feel like we are in an “energy conservation” arms race, where working to bring more effort/energy into part of his way of going causes him to find new ways to shut down elsewhere.

We can change but even if there’s no skip, I wouldn’t say we’re flying.

Horse and I both dislike riding in our indoor all winter (though it’s objectively perfectly serviceable in size and footing) and for some reason all the work seems harder. It can get so boring yet spooky in there. Spring now, please.

[J-Lu]

@exvet and @RJC, I appreciate both or your posts.

I ditched CC work recently and my trainer rode today and got very balanced CC and she thinks it’s time again to ask for the changes. BUT, he can tend to be sucked back in advanced work and we both independently noted that he holds his breath in collected walk and in walk transitions from higher gaits. I suspect he anticipates things and i know he benefits from time to think through issues. I also think he overthinks things when attached to a repetition. He’s a huge anticipator. All that said, he’ easy to manipulate ( forward, back, leg yield leg than right, half-pass) n the canter and you can easily place his shoulders and hind quarters wherever.

Ugghh!

[Manni01]

I was thrilled today because I got 6 clean changes today. Yes, my horse can do them, but usually with me it’s a hit and miss, some are amazing and sometimes we get stuck. But I found a new trainer and she is very serious about a nice forward canter without any pulling or holding on the reins…. As a result, I love to canter my horse ( in the past I hated canter because it was always a fight) and she does all the changes beautifully…. I think I mentioned it before, it’s all about the quality of the canter and now I would add about pulling on the reins…. I never thought I would pull on my reins, so it is something which is not obvious to us. But it makes a huge difference….

also I developed a strategy for my younger horse to learn the flying changes… I found a jumper rider who will do jumper changes with her…. He is very experienced and so far he rode several with her without any problems. I hope this will make the whole thing less stressful

[IPEsq]

I’m on the verge of having reliable changes each way with the 5yo. Starting to figure out how to maintain forward and straight on the more difficult one. Even got changes done on a serpentine last weekend! Hoping we don’t have another growth spurt anytime soon to screw it all up again.

[EventerAJ]

Establishing changes is such a non-linear progress path.

My horse’s R-L change continues to be pretty reliable. He still might miss about 1 out of 10-15 attempts (over several days, not all in one session), but he fully understands what to do, how to do it, and what the aids are. I can get the change in a variety of situations; half circle to rail; counter canter on a 20m circle to change; on a straight line such as quarter line in true canter or counter canter; across the diagonal crossing the centerline. The R-L change is becoming a regular, commonplace activity, not a Super Special OMG YOU DID IT! moment of stopping to walk with immense praise.

The L-R change is starting to show a glimmer of hope. If we get two successful ones in a ride, we usually quit or put it away for the day. Those two successful changes could come in 3 attempts, 4 attempts, or more…but they are happening with increased awareness, not just “blind luck” and a tap of the whip. He has learned that I’m asking to pick up the right lead; he still has a tendency to swap in front and skip change behind two strides later, but if I work at keeping his shoulder straight (not right shoulder falling in), he is capable of coming through clean behind. Which is a HUGE success for him, and I immediately walk with long rein big pats and much praise. I had a mini-breakthrough using a reining method, of cantering a 20m circle, and on the last quarter of the circle (approaching centerline) asking for counter bend, pushing the right shoulder over, and then asking for change at X. I barely had to ask, he just changed right there like the setup made it easy. (I had tried similar setup before, with no success, but it really worked that day in that moment). Things started to click a little more after that, and when we cantered across the diagonal on the left lead, I asked him to collect, straighten, and I felt him just KNOW what to do…he kept the hind legs bouncing, kept the inside shoulder up, I barely thought “Change” and he offered it cleanly. Ride over, big praise.

Perfection is still very, very far away, but it feels rewarding to see the pieces slowly coming together.

[J-Lu]

Whelp, here’s our update:

Horse is pretty balanced at the canter. I went to an auditor-oriented clinic of flying changes by a GP rider and young-horse specialist, shows alot and trained in Germany. Her mom is a GP rider and helped found the USDF. blah blah blah. She helped me with Sir SpooksAlot when he first arrived in NC and I was a demo rider for one of her USDF trainer certification tests a while back. She knows us a bit. Her clinic was pretty cool, started with watching videos of good flying changes and then bad FCs, with horses who had issues and riders who had issues. She explained how she trains and rides changes for a wide variety of horses. Then, we watched her ride changes on a schoolmaster and she explained what she did, and then the ammie owner try to ride changes (and even get a canter from the passage and piaffe*) on same horse and she explained the mistakes of the horse and rider, and watched two other ammies on two very different schoolmasters make common mistakes (horses and riders). It was very cool.

*the ammie wasn’t a bad rider at all but the horse appeared to be sullen with doing the work under a non-professional and defaulted to piaffe/passage because that was easier for the horse. The trainer says she sees that ALOT with horses sold as schoolmasters.

I explained what I was doing and the fact that I got clean changes when he was a spooky youngster and she thought I had a special problem. She thought that since I worked much on balance with the CC and transitions, that SSA feels he’s being obedient by not changing. She said SHE’d disunite the hind end with a horse like that, and then trot and go back to canter, but I’m not nearly as good of a rider as she is - I would just confuse my horse. She said she knows trainers who would use cavaletti or poles with horses like this (I mentioned this previously to much disdain) but she’s not experienced using those. She suggested I try again with solid aids on a figure 8 with straight, not bendy lines and start with changing through the trot and NOT the walk with this horse. I’ll give it a whirl. She thinks once my horse figures it out he’ll say “Ohhhhhh, THAT’s what you want”.

I got a bunch of tools from this clinic and will try her suggestions for my horse.

[exvet]

Sounds like a great clinic. Wish I had been there and I suspect I know who you’re referring to as well. I’ve been riding with Molly Martin and actually taking the Flying Changes course with Amelia Newcomb. The combination has me really understanding where and why my horse (welsh cob) has had his challenges and appreciate how much better his canter and walk-canter-walk transitions have become since focusing and continuing to go back to the basics along with longlining.

I had a bittersweet moment yesterday as I had a third level test 3 from a schooling show I rode in 9 years ago on my current guy’s sire (who is now deceased) pop up in my feed. The changes were all clean, in the air and forward. Gosh I miss my stallion and though he definitely stamped my guy, his son just doesn’t seem to believe in the flying part of the flying change LOL. It’s the forward into the connection that we lack and the steadfast attachment to being energy efficient in the change to the one direction where we typically get the skip a change - our problem - Lack of Forward and maintaining being through in the back and allowing me to bend him around my right leg when on the right rein or left leg when on the left rein. The good news is that since I know he had clean changes when we first tried to introduce them is that I know he can. Watching his sire in a show where I was riding, I know I can (easy to convince oneself otherwise when you hit a wall). Going back to the basics, breaking everything down, explaining it to said ‘Junior’ and building from there I think is and will be our ticket. I did get much more forward canter departs from the walk with plenty of jump in the first stride of the canter both directions (our focus right now) and much more forward canter on the seat today. I also am ending up with a horse (welsh cob) who is getting really good at all the 4th level stuff sans the FCs…LOL…I may be that person who passes go without collecting $200 and moves right to PSG once those dam changes make sense to him. Considering I already have my bronze and silver, it may be more ‘sparing’ on my large stinker pony in the long run.