Flying Change Hell Support Group

[J-Lu]

Hahahahaha!!

The person I was referring to is E S-R. If I had the $$$, I’d surely send my guy to her to learn the changes. And that’s saying something because this horse is so quirky and I wouldn’t trust many trainers to not fry his brain. I’m considering having one of her longer-time working students out to work with us.

Very interestingly, the cowboy trainer at my barn had a clinic last weekend and a dressage rider (he had 3 dressage riders) in the clinic spoke with me over beers in the barn Sat night and mentioned that I might be helped by Amelia Newcomb. She watched our lunch time ride. I’d love to know your experiences with her because I never heard of her but you are the second person who recommends her. I’d be interested in working with her. Thank you!

Oh Lordie, it is so difficult comparing the horses we ride now with horses in the past, especially if they are related. My previous rides were so easy to teach FC to. And I LOVED my previous mare, who I wish would die at 20 and rise up from the ashes like a Phoenix as a 2 year old for the rest of my life. My horse’s half brother, that he was imported with, is currently a sane stallion at GP. That rider started my horse and got bucked off by my horse but not the stallion (who went on to win the NA 70 stallion test). My guy is an outlier. So it is.

Sir SpooksAlot can suck back when he’s thinking too much about an upcoming event (he overthinks a lot and sucks back to give himself time to think) which is why E S-R thought i should ditch the simple changes when showing him where in the arena to change. The cowboy trainer suggested I no longer ride counter canter and I don’t.

It seems like you and I are in the same boat with our horses! My horse is schooling passage but can’t get flying changes. I’m on a mission to figure out how to explain the changes to him in a way he can grasp. I feel like I have a bunch of new tools and will try them out.

[IPEsq]

It sounds like you’ve got some good ideas to start with. Going through trot and using straight lines seems like a good plan.

With my guy, we’ve done long diagonals, short diagonals, serpentines, simple changes through trot and through walk, interspersed with circles or just a transition and no change at all. No counter canter other than shallow loops on different days.

Horse also does poles and jumps. He also sucks back when he anticipates. So lately I’ve been working into long approaches to cavaletti or poles and a change through the corner following, maybe after 3-4 strides of making sure he is still going forward. So that we aren’t trying to change early but ride the straight line. So he also will understand when we jump more courses how to change on a cue and not just because we are turning. Or sucking back and stopping or kicking out at worst. My guy needs to understand the subtle setup and cue for the change independent of the scenarios and places in the ring where we might do a change because he anticipates too much sometimes. Sounds like your guy may not anticipate at all if he thinks counter canter is the right answer.

On the figure 8 with diagonal lines you can choose where to do the trot change and how long to trot. I think that is a good idea for making sure he starts to learn that the change comes from a place of straightness since yours can be so bendy in counter canter. Do less of the leg yield and moving shoulders and/or hindquarters over and instead focus on straight. Worth a shot anyway.

[Manni01]

I had a super session with my young horse last week . She is nine and was basically out of work for 2 years. One year ago I was starting to train her consistently again. For 6 months I was having problems with the canter (my fault). Then my trainer fixed my problem and now the canter is simply beautiful.

So I was starting to entertain the idea to start her with the changes.

As she is older I wanted to make it nice for her… So I found an old experienced jumper rider and convinced him to do the changes over poles and jump her a little. He has ridden her 4 times now. All the changes over poles are clean so once in a while he does changes without the poles. usually he does one change to each side and then he jumps her as a reward. Last time she did a change to each side very obedient but a little late.
And in my last dressage lesson my trainer wanted me to try the changes. She did an obedient change to the left ( not sure whether it was clean but she didn’t get excited which was good and the trainer liked it. And then we tried the change to the right. She did not change at the point I wanted and my trainer told me to keep cantering her. I went on a circle and on the centerline I repeated the aid and felt an amazing change!!
My trainer told me it was through and beautiful .

So now I am a little surprised because I planned one year to get the changes and now after 6 weeks she seems to get the idea and obviously doesn’t mind it at all…. Maybe the idea with the jumping as a reward encourages her .

[exvet]

Well I hope to be able to post the video but I did a thing. I was working my coming 6 year old gelding and was focusing on the quality of the gaits, connection into both reins and basically the set up to the canter departs with the expectation of working on walk-trot-walk transitions and trot-canter-trot transitions. We’ve been working on leg yielding and lengthening of the stride as well with the emphasis on forward but not running. So I was coming across the diagonal with the plan to change lead through the trot at ‘x’. I did my ‘set up’ to change leads to see if I could keep him through and supple and instead of trot I figured, ‘hey, he feels pretty darn good in the hands and on his back end so what if I just switch my legs?’ and before I could abort or change my mind WE had a clean flying change - in the air with decent jump. Now darn it why can’t my homebred coming 9 year old be so crystal clear and automatic? Darn clever large stinker ponies who are convinced they know a better way … actually his basics are becoming quite good so we’ll see if he’s able to connect the dots in a week or so. While I know it’s me and on me to figure this out but there’s a little vindication in knowing that you haven’t completely ‘lost it’ LOL

[J-Lu]

@IPEsq

It sounds like you’ve got some good ideas to start with. Going through trot and using straight lines seems like a good plan.

With my guy, we’ve done long diagonals, short diagonals, serpentines, simple changes through trot and through walk, interspersed with circles or just a transition and no change at all. No counter canter other than shallow loops on different days.

Horse also does poles and jumps. He also sucks back when he anticipates. So lately I’ve been working into long approaches to cavaletti or poles and a change through the corner following, maybe after 3-4 strides of making sure he is still going forward. So that we aren’t trying to change early but ride the straight line. So he also will understand when we jump more courses how to change on a cue and not just because we are turning. Or sucking back and stopping or kicking out at worst. My guy needs to understand the subtle setup and cue for the change independent of the scenarios and places in the ring where we might do a change because he anticipates too much sometimes. Sounds like your guy may not anticipate at all if he thinks counter canter is the right answer.

On the figure 8 with diagonal lines you can choose where to do the trot change and how long to trot. I think that is a good idea for making sure he starts to learn that the change comes from a place of straightness since yours can be so bendy in counter canter. Do less of the leg yield and moving shoulders and/or hindquarters over and instead focus on straight. Worth a shot anyway.

Thanks for this! I’m going to really work on this. Yesterday, I put little dog-training cones in diamond out to signal a “this is where we do something different” area. Haunches-in- straight throught he cones (at X) shoulder-in, etc. Canter, trot-canter. it was very windy and I could NOT get him to go into the corner by the Gate of Doom* or pay attention much to me down that end of the arena but he still managed to anticipate the trot transition, esp going r - l and breaking into it before the cones even with aids to keep him in the canter. I had to get very strong with my seat and legs and realized I needed to ditch the visual marker of the cones. I really make him ride through them and transition later. Going on the diagonal towards the GoD? He sucks back, gets super hyper-vigilant, and is sometimes on a hair-trigger to spook. Some days I can use this energy to my advantage, not yesterday.
His head was not in the game and I didn’t want a bigger issue. Today is a cold, rainy mess of a day. I’ll take your advice and ask at various points along the diagonal. I think the straightness will make it clear that that he has to follow the aids, not the directionality. I hope.

Thank you!

*the Gate of Doom leads from the outdoor arena to the “playground” (lots of obstacles) to the gate leading out to a pasture and on the other side is a line of trees beyond which there is a house on acreage). He has spent much time in the playground over all of the obstacles and I’ve opened both gates to ride from the arena, through the playground and into the pasture many, many times. I don’t get why he gets so hypervigilant there.

[J-Lu]

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Sooooo typical of these creatures we ride!!! #1 personality: I disagree that I should change my legs in the air because I’m disciplined and question your ask. I looked though my notebooks and I don’t see that exercise so I question the validity of your cues. This must be a trick question.

#2 personality: Hey, it sure is easier for me to change my legs so I’m gonna do it! Weeeee!!! What did ya think? Felt good to me!

Ahhhhh, horses!

[IPEsq]

Yeah you definitely have to pick the right day to set yourself up for a hope of success! The first time I attempted the “easy” change off of a serpentine approach, it was a day where I was thinking, wow, this canter is really super today. And then bam, easy change, on the aids without sucking back. And then lots of pats and no more changes that day. Other days? Definitely not in the same place in mind or body. Some days are for learning. Some are more for disaster management.

The magic happens when you can do the “hard” things anyway on the less than good days. That’s when they are confirmed. Yesterday started with some squealing and porpoising in the air, with spring coming and the 5yo got a chance to be outside. Another person had some poles out on the diagonals, so I worked on those to get focus. Mostly staying on a circle. And then once we had our feet on the ground and brains in our head, I thought ok, let’s see if we can do the long approach to the pole on the diagonal and change after, between pole and corner (like horse will need to do in the hunters). And he did reasonably well, not only with the changes where I wanted them but also with not crow hopping and getting wiggly and trying to cross canter or change early. And then we did some where we went over the pole off the short turn then had to keep going straight for a while without changing, waiting closer to the next corner. It was a B+ effort on a day that started very badly, and I was quite happy with that! I would have stayed working on the circles months ago.

[atr]

And then there’s my guy. Best changes ever… all the damn time. Shift your weight or move your legs slightly, Boom! Clean Change! Countercanter is far too hard, and insisting will cause explosions.

I mean its fabulous and good riding discipline in a way, but such a demandingly precise ride can be rather exhausting, and is a bit of a shock after Previous Horsie, who, bless his heart, couldn’t do a clean change to the right for love nor money.

(Unless of course you were riding 2.3 at Regional Finals, where he plumbed the very depths of his soul to change instead if countercantering the serpentine…)

[LadyNeon01]

I’m pretty sure I have a combination of personality #1 and #2. Sometimes, Fred just will not change when I ask and we have to go back to simple changes before we attempt the FC again. I’ve actually adjusted my work leading into the FC work because of this.

Then sometimes, I’ll have personality #2 like I did in my lesson on Saturday. Working on straightness off the rail (sometimes the eighth line, other times the quarter line) in walk, trot, and canter. I was attempting shoulder in right at the canter when all of a sudden I felt the pop, pop, change! Except I wasn’t asking for that. All I wanted was that outside shoulder to come over to make him more straight. Nice clean changes though, so I can’t complain too much.

What all that told me was that I need to have him super straight for the changes. And that he’d rather change than do something hard like shoulder in.

[jdm]

my favourite line to use with my students is “problems with the flying changes are never problems with the flying changes”

it’s almost always a straightness issue, primarily. and thoroughness secondarily.

[IPEsq]

I spoke too soon, and youngster might be growing again so we have forgotten how to go in a straight line or what contact is, much less connection. So I think flying changes are going back on hold.

[cnm161]

So these things come and go in phases: you introduce changes, and then are swarmed with regrets stemming from never being able to hold a single lead to save your life.

You clarify the timing, and suddenly changes require unanimous decree to occur at all.

You address the straightness, and then ride a razor’s edge of soft and balanced or suddenly on the opposite lead again.

Anyway, that’s where I am now. Clean expressive and straight changes happen when I want, where I want, but also in many places I don’t want at times I didn’t prefer.

[sascha]

With normal horse (my current horse is one he’ll of an exception) I always used that time to introduce 4s and 3s and counter canter on smaller circles. That seemed to really clarify the aids and help them to understand to wait for a freaking clue when just cantering along not being asked to do anything. YM(and my own current mileage, sigh)MV.

[Mondo]

@jdm

my favourite line to use with my students is “problems with the flying changes are never problems with the flying changes”

it’s almost always a straightness issue, primarily. and thoroughness secondarily.

100% this ^^. I would add, it’s often also a function of the rider doing too much or moving around in the saddle. I try to correct that by reminding them that a flying change is simply asking for canter from canter (as opposed to asking from walk or trot).

[exvet]

Being from the South, I’m a little hesitant to post this simply because it means I’m superstitious and I don’t want to jinx myself I rode and worked my energy efficient welsh cob over the weekend focused on continuing to develop the basics such as canter quality, improved connection, getting and keeping control of the hind end (ie, engaged) and the shoulders (ie, keeping him supple as well as into both reins). It meant I was doing a ton of walk-canter transitions and flying change (or really canter to canter transition) set ups. I, as I have been all along, would get to a place where I felt things were ‘good’ and would try a flying change.

This isn’t my first rodeo; but, it’s the first time I’ve had one of ‘mine’ decide that the skip-a-change was the answer to any and all requests for a flying change (mostly left to right). I, as I did with his father before him - and I’ll add quite successfully, introduced flying changes before solidifying the counter canter when it became clear that second level work was to be our focus. Like his father the changes were there, not necessarily more than a 5/6 (score) but in the air and not late. So I put them away and worked on our second level stuff because you know if you’re competing you don’t want them changing here there or anywhere when you’re supposed to be doing a counter canter in the test. When it came time to pull out the FC, my little fire plug conformed Welsh Cob started to throw in a skip-a-change. Now I have never drilled flying changes, didn’t need to, until training tempis…at least that was with my prior mounts. Every trainer I had worked with up through this development, insisted that I not punish my ‘cute hard trier of a pony’ for offering a change, any attempt at a flying change. Well that is where my BIGGER problem developed and the skip-a-change became his go to. Fortunately I met up with someone (Trainer) who insisted that she can put the FCs on a pig. I then introduced her to said, PIG (a cute fluffy one but a situation that my other instructors had more difficulty knowing how to help me dig myself out of this hole or FC hell).

So at least 18 months later, I am so happy to be able to say that this weekend (with video as proof) I did not have a single skip-a-change in any direction. Woo Hoo! but the changes weren’t what I would call ‘pretty’. So I go for a lesson today and informed my instructor about our accomplishment but that I was still struggling with forward despite having beautiful, prompt and forward walk-canter departs while long lining (which I’ve been doing a lot more of in order to make sure I could establish the right mechanics and see what my big stinker pony was doing with his body when being asked for the walk to canter transition). She then went on a monologue on how my problem all along with this guy has been lack of forward and whenever he sucks back behind my leg he also assumes a shape akin to having swallowed a broom (it’s what it feels like riding him too). Sooooooooo, we worked the first 20 minutes of my lesson keeping my legs off and only using them to ask for transitions up and if he didn’t take off like a lightening bolt, well, he met with the fires of hell coming at him. Let’s just say, I found the fire in his gut and the understanding that my leg is going to be off and only used for requests of forward which he will answer. Then to address the broom handle he likes to swallow, she had me counter canter him and counter bend (in the counter canter) with the goal that his canter, every stride, would remain connected, through, soft and really supple. Damn if it didn’t work. She had me do a flying change in each direction from the counter canter. I was told that they were worth a 7 in a show (she judges). So we stopped and back on the trailer (after a proper cool out) and to home he went.

Obviously I am going to have to repeat this from now on but thank goodness he is starting to really understand that the skip-a-change is NOT what I want . I finally have real hope that I may get that ticket out of purgatory and to a better place.

[endlessclimb]

Your writing style is hysterical, and I’d like to see pictures of your cute fluffy Pig. Congrats on the progress!

[exvet]

Ask and Yee shall receive and thank you. Heading out now to climb aboard and see if it’s reproducible.

Here is my large stinker pony in a schooling show last fall. It was September and he already was getting pretty hairy

Here he is a few weeks later at a recognized show, body clipped; and yes, I am lazy. His mane is roached.

[Jealoushe]

Cutie!!!

[endlessclimb]

Look at you guys, what a team. He looks like a blast!

[exvet]

Thank you! Happy to say that we repeated yesterday’s exercises and attempted flying changes in both directions. I was encouraged to work the harder direction first; so, the first attempt at the FC left to right was late but in the air, then our second attempt was in the air and clean after getting him more forward without losing the connection or throughness. Next we made an attempt to do the flying change right to left and it was clean and then we were done Tomorrow I’ll work him in the long lines. Sunday my daughter is coming over to go trail riding. Hopefully she’ll have enough time to watch us give it another go after we come back from the trail. Don’t want to drill but at the same time don’t want to have him forget or decide his way is still better LOL.