of course… you are right and I have no idea as always… they are different…
Agree 100%. Engagement and throughness are not really taught in hunter riding. A dressage horse that did a hunter change, with its nose poked out as the hunters like and with no throughness, would not score well in a dressage test.
Manni - I understand you are not from the US. If you haven’t ridden a hunter course or even sat at a big A show and watched the really good hunters you probably don’t understand. There IS a difference.
Changes are also not done in dressage out of the extended canter. It always says collect first and then change (or have a collecting movement like a 10m circle). They are ridden out of the most forward of the collected canters but certainly not out of an extended canter.
MTA: I have been trying to find videos of top hunters doing changes and found this one of Kelly Farmer (I know she has gotten in trouble for a lot of things but she does well in competition - came in 2nd overall here - so I thought it was a good option) that has some changes in it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVZjs6xutVY
Compared to a third level horse (at that time) who scored a 79% at 3-3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80bksIOCRxQ
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I guess I am very stupid and very different then anybody else… If I look at a change and its through and through the whole body, I don’t care whether the horse is a dressagehorse or a hunter. on the other hand if a change is bad it doesn’t matter either whether the horse is a hunter or dressage horse… They might be counted different (a bad change doesn’t matter in the hunters obviously) but the quality of the change has nothing to do with the discipline. They are both horses… But I know I have no idea…
and Samantha37 not a very good comparison in your videos, I saw only one flying change in that hunter video and that one looked like he was behind in the back… The way he was moving it wouldn’t surprise me, but it was hard to see, so I apologize when I was wrong But the rider was very good about getting him in the right canter anyhow to avoid changes…
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A good clean lead change is the same in reining, dressage, hunters, western riding, etc. it’s the way it’s asked for and the ability for a Dressage horse to stay up, straight and through that’s different. When teaching the changes I was told no leaning for the change, as the goal is to be able to cue and have a forward uphill change. It’s hard to train linked tempi changes if they are not cued or straight. I think hunters with auto changes essentially know the direction change and swap. At one point when my horse was struggling with changes I did a bit of hunter swaps over a course of ground poles so she could understand why we were changing.
I think that comparison WAS the point… the easy-to-see change after the third jump, where the horse is late behind, is considered acceptable in hunterland, or at least not generally penalized. But it’s not a clean change or “dressage change” that I think OP was asking about. I personally would not consider it “ideal” for hunters, either, but it’s like rails in the equitation: no longer automatically faulted. But all things being equal, if one round has clean changes and the other has late changes, I would think the former should score at least a little higher.
and I do think they need some level of coming through (the horse looks kind of backed off and not really between the leg and the hand), but not necessarily to the level of collection. Smoothness and not interfering with their jump (except to encourage a more brilliant jump) is paramount. Which is why the ones that swap front-to-back are allowed to do so, in case trying to fix it causes a bigger issue, like horse not swapping at all or making a fuss while doing so. And auto changes are ok, but it can run you into trouble when the horse swaps in front of a jump, such as to the first fence. I can’t imagine anyone wanting auto changes for a dressage horse.
also, i think the first change, after fence 1, might have been late too but I’m watchful on mobile and need my glasses.
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This was the first post of the thread:
How do you explain the difference between the proper dressage change and a hunter swap?
Then someone made a comment about hunter changes commonly being late behind.
A bunch of posters refuted that “hunter changes are late behind” and detailed a bunch multiple different ways they are different.
Here’s a recap:
What’s the same:
A united, clean change.
A good quality canter is necessary to produce it.
What’s different, hunters vs. dressage:
Utilitarian/functional vs. a test of correct training
Flat vs. round/up in the canter
Required at the most basic level vs. required at 3rd level
Ground covering hunter canter vs. collected or medium dressage canter
No disruption in canter rhythm vs. obvious jump/amplitude
Working hunter frame vs. engagement and thoroughness appropriate to 3rd level
Ridden in half-seat or two point vs. ridden in a full seat/cued from seat
Often automatic vs. never automatic/always cued
Not scored, penalized if done badly/absent vs. scored as a standalone movement
So I don’t understand how anyone could read this thread and conclude that
If the change is clean there is no difference at all.
Either reading comprehension or even the most basic understanding of how hunters go is missing. Maybe both.
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Yep that was the point. I thought the first change looked clean, but the angle was terrible so it was hard to see. I actually had a hard time finding videos of top hunters doing changes as they are all cued in the air for which lead to land on.
In the Kelley Farmer video, the first change may very well have been late behind, it’s hard to tell because the horse was obscured by the ring decoration. The second one, at :49, was a clean, united change. ETA: No, it wasn’t - it was a half stride late.
I suspect that horse could sometimes have a late change behind because the canter doesn’t have a lot of suspension when its stride is compressed to make the related distances - looked better at the hand gallop
McGurks summary made lots of sense to me. Thank you!
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:lol:
this is a fun topic. My trainer is a dressage rider herself but has a few hunter students past and present that clean up on the local circuit (roughly equivalent to the b circuit, give or take). Having ridden the hunter horses in the way they are “meant” to be ridden (and then of course, her own 4th confirmed/schooling PSG horse) holy whoa are changes different.
- Yes. They should all be harmonious and correct (nothing happening late). Late is more forgivable for hunters if it ensures a smooth and rideable change.
- Many people have addressed engagement through the top line which is true - hunters change out of a much different way of going. (Longer, lower, flatter, less engaged.)
- Due to the lack of engagement over the back and the lack of energy in the hind end one of the primary differences that I feel is what the hind end does in the change: there is no amplitude or dynamism in the change of step. It feels to me almost as if the legs are somewhat left out behind the horse, to ride - a change with dressage horses involve really stepping up and through.
Primarily, the approach of the change is different. The balance of a dressage horse is different (think of when changes are introduced in tests - the early fundamentals of collection are already there), with more weight expected to be in the hind end and a more elevated shoulder. Self carriage should be happening although perhaps not in as extreme a degree as the higher levels. Flying changes in hunters are not an “advanced levels” movement/concept. Horses require no special preparation for it which reflects that they don’t expect horses to go into it with the background in collection, extension, and self carriage dressage has.
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Interesting…That’s what I’ve considered a late*, but acceptable change in the hunters. Or maybe what OP calls a “hunter swap”. And then disunited (and penalized in the show ring) would be any more steps between the front end swapping and the hind end swapping.
*because the horse is on the right lead behind, when his front end swaps to the left; he then catches up behind, instead of doing a change back & front in the same stride.
Rumba at 0:57 and 1:09 is what I would consider a clean change.
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Some nice definitions and observations.
A late-behind or in front (less common bit happens) is never acceptable in hunters. If it isn’t clean, they’ll be penalized. Some can be so smooth, that when riding you go “did he change or land on the correct lead?”
Totally different purposes, different training and omg a different feel from the collected dressage change. Good changes are a thing of beauty- to me.
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I agree. The change at 0:49 is a half stride late behind.
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Nobody is calling anybody stupid but the Hunter has to show it works amost independently and stays forward with a level top line with minimal contact while the Dressage horse stays…packaged for want of better word…fully engaged and on the bridle.
They are both "correct’ for their discipline and they both get the job done. Opinion is fine but that doesn’t mean it’s right or wrong, just different for different disciples and the job at hand, intricate execution of specified movements including extension, collection and laterals in a small arena or a free flowing, smooth trip over multiple fences in a big ring with the appearance of as little rider input as possible and no break in pace…they are different but appropriate to meet their judging standards, if they aren’t your standards, that’s fine but not “wrong” or sub standard.
And yes I have ridden both types of changes and they don’t feel the same because they are not asked for the same way out of the same pace by a rider sitting the same way in tne saddle, fact one sits deep, one in half seat at most.
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The Rumba video is a great example. But Rumba also has an exemplary canter, with a clear period of suspension. Teaching changes to a horse with that canter would be a breeze.
I will go back and watch the Kelley video again.
ETA: Yes, y’all are right. The change at :49 is half a stride late - horse changes in front first, then in back. I also think that you are right in that it may not necessarily be penalized - maybe partly because it would be hard for the judges to catch?
THIS statement on that change being clean, is why I struggled, and STILL struggle with clean dressage changes. I was taught that the change at :49 was “clean, united”, and it is “late” for dressage. I have had to unlearn the feel that the clean hunter change was clean, and learn a dressage change.
Poor Lauren Sprieser had to deal with my head nearly exploding in frustration, as I’d get what felt like a “clean change” only to have her call out “late” until I finally realized that despite hunter trainers and riders everywhere swearing that a “clean change is a clean change”, a dressage clean change is not equal to a hunter clean change.
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I saw this too; late behind.
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I think it can be hard for the judges to catch, if it’s smooth and doesn’t change the rhythm of the canter.
And if it’s this kind of low-key swap VS a clean change with more expression/fussiness or disunited/no change at all, then I can see why someone would not attempt to fix a hunter that changed this way. And if most/many hunters are swapping front-to-back…I’m sure there would be some backlash/cry of politics if judges started penalizing for this kind of swap. It’s not like hunters get extra points for lead changes, they just have to do them when necessary.
Also, I’d thought this was a new-ish thing, like from the 90s, the “hunter swap”/front-to-back change due to the slooow-motion canter, but in this video at 2:03 and 3:10, the horse swaps front-to-back also. And it’s from the 70s? So maybe this swap has always been acceptable in the hunters? Horse scored a 90, it sounds like. Or maybe it’s something only penalized if the judge was looking for something to lower the score or under certain judges who were particular about changes?
Sigh- not at SFVA. I don’t know how many times it can be said- a late change is not ideal. It is not what is strived for and IF it is caught may be penalized, depending on the rest of the round. One of the issues- lots of things that may obstruct vision, hunter judges do not have scribes so the second he/she looks down they may have missed it was a half millisecond behind. Whereas in the dressage arena - you have scribes and you are solo so the judge doesn’t ever have to take his/her eyes off of you. Also- other things are taken into account for a hunter score- not individual movements. It is just the way it is. If the horse is above quality with a fantastic canter and nails every spot in a rhythmic fashion- it will beat a horse that may nail every change but not be as fluid or have a great arc. It is just the name of the game. Not individual movements but a accumulation of many factors.
Everyone saying a late change behind is the “hunter way” just do not know what they are talking about. Full stop.
(and Manni- I agree with you)
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I didn’t think it mattered as much in hunters as long as the change was within a stride (half stride late or whatever) and it didn’t disrupt the flow. That being said, I’m glad that unclean changes get penalized in the hunters. They should be.
But the fact of the matter is, a hunter change and a dressage change are two different ways of doing a change.
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