How do you explain the difference between the proper dressage change and a hunter swap? Or isn’t there one?
Just looking for really nice explanation…
I’d say Hunter changes are flat and lacking engagement and expression. They are more utilitarian - rather than a movement to be trained, their purpose is simply ease in change of direction.
You don’t see the amplitude that good dressage changes have because they don’t have the engagement needed to produce them.
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Wouldn’t it be nice if over fences horses moved like dressage horses? Just a thought.
Nope, because can you jump 1.6m out of a dressage canter today? Not happening. Needs more forward.
acrually many SJers are very well schooled on the flat…but they seem less bogged down. Both could benefit from each other, I am sure.
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not sure what a hunter swap is. But a clean change is a clean change. It should not make a difference whether performed by a hunter or a dressage horse
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when you watch a hunter they do not change front and back simultaneous. It is however in the same stride…
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That’s technically a late change, when they change front-to-back (they change in front and the very next stride, change behind); its just accepted nowadays in the hunters.
Not all of them change that way (or necessarily deliberately taught that way, it’s more like, if the horse swaps like that, it isn’t corrected), but they allow it for “smoothness” and how some horses “auto-change”.
I would say some are maybe taught changes too early to get around a course and swap like that because it’s easier on them. And since it’s not penalized and you risk horse not getting change at all or becoming less smooth with them, if you try to fix it, they just let it be.
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well then I think the hunter change is simply not through… A change has to go through the whole body. If the horse does not move over the back the change will not go over the back either
Yup. A late or sloppy change is one thing, but a flat, more utilitarian change is actually functional when it comes to over fences work. A “dressage” change - ie: one with a lot of jump and engagement is not really what you’re looking for when you’re cruising around a course. It breaks the rhythm, which is counter-productive to a good round.
Just different functions. One isn’t really “better” than the other.
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The hunter riders ask usually in a half seat position and with a (often dramatic) weight shift to shove the horse to the other lead- if the horse doesn’t have auto changes. It doesn’t matter if it’s a stride late, or crooked. There is no throughness. Plus a flatter/smoother change is preferred in the hunters, whereas dressage changes require jump.
There is a big difference between hunter changes and dressage changes. I don’t think Manni has watched many hunter rounds based on her comments on this thread. Yes, technically both are lead changes, but to watch they are totally different.
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I like the description of a hunter change being flat and utilitarian, without the jump or expression of a dressage change. And yes, hunter changes exist as the smoothest way to navigate a course (though a horse with good clean changes is not scored higher than a horse that lands on the correct lead out of the line.) A late change is a late change, period, and should be penalized. I understand that they may not always be in practice. A good hunter change is united; with the back and front changing at the same time, should be nearly invisible, and not disrupt the canter rhythm at all.
There are a hundred ways to teach a hunter change, a lot of them, including the cantering over a pole on the ground, encourage the late change behind. Most people attempt to teach it too early, before the horse has a good quality canter with enough suspension to get them done easily and cleanly. The dramatic shift of weight to shove the horse onto the other lead is ugly and incorrect. I prefer to ask for them by just changing the bend, a little obviously at first, less so as the horse gets it. A hunter absolutely should have a change from a half seat or two point; you shouldn’t have to use your seat as an aid to ask a hunter for a change.
In dressage training, there is a clear development in skills leading up to teaching the change, including counter canter. As someone else earlier said, the change is in the dressage tests where it is as a test of correct training up to that point - is the horse developing thorough? straight? Did they have a good, balanced counter canter at 2nd level?
In hunters, some trainers start asking for changes as soon as the horse can w/t/c and jump a line. If the horse is reasonably fit and has a good quality canter, they can probably get away with it. If not, they’ll struggle for a long time to fix the change. Not that I spent any time “fixing” bad hunter changes…
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Exactly. Jumping horses have to do a job…getting a horse and rider safely over obstacles.
When dressage quit being about a horse’s training and all about a horse’s gaits, dressage became “big lick dressage” that was all about show and not about function.
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It is the same movement. A hunter change should be clean just like a dressage change. Although it is common to see a change that is a half-stride or full-stride late behind in hunters, it is not correct. The difference is how much each discipline penalizes lateness.
The change reflects the canter it is ridden from and the intention of the rider. A hunter’s change is ridden from a level, forward canter. A hunter doesn’t want the change bigger or smaller than the canter because they don’t want the flow of the round to be disrupted. The change should be imperceptible. A dressage change is ridden from a collected canter with jump. The dressage rider wants the change to be bigger than the surrounding canter strides.
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A well trained and correct hunter change will turn into a dressage change out of the collection taught in dressage. One which gets by in the hunter world without being a really correct change can cause problems.
My trainer has an old jumper/broodmare who was taught changes for jumping, and they’re hard to stay with as they are insanely uphill and through and correct. She’s already the biggest mover on the property by far, which is why she has dressage offspring.
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I agree with those that have said a clean change is a clean change.
The clean change is less mandatory in the hunter world and a little late behind still counts as a change. But good hunter riders train for and aim for clean changes.
One big difference is that a hunter swap is typically automatic-- the horse does it at the change of direction and not because he was specifically asked to change leads. In dressage, horses must maintain counter center to some degree after second level. So, the change should never be automatic.
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NEVER MIND> I SEE EVERYONE ELSE SAID THIS TOO>>>>>> BUT I’LL LEAVE IT UP NEVERTHELESS…
Also, remember that dressage changes are only expected (ie, in a test) until after some collection is required - they come from a more collected canter than a hunter change. (I am NOT saying that changes come from “Collected canter” - although horses can and some do change from CC- but from a “more collected than working canter” - which is what it seems most hunter I see are doing.
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ok… there seem to be a lot of different things going on in this thread…
Thank you for everybody who agreed that a clean change is a clean change…
If the change is clean there is no difference at all. A well balanced horse (doesn’t matter whether Hunter or Dressage horse will do a clean change when changing directions. If you want to ride counter canter you maintain the previous bend when you change directions, so its not a natural change of directions…
Yes you can get a change more expressive if your horse is really working from behind and has a lot of power in the canter.
Otherwise there should be not much of a difference. And some of the changes in Dressage tests are ridden after an extended canter. So they are pretty forward…
If a horse changes late behind its not over his back and its not a correct through change… Doesn’t matter whether Hunter or Dressage horse.
So I think there is not really much of a difference.
Every test I can think of where there’s a change after an extended canter has something like, “before F, collect the canter, F flying change of lead.” Many people just slip in the change without collecting first, thereby avoiding the difficulty of the exercise and get lower scores as a result.
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I was thinking of the GP where you do extended canter and then at K you collect and do the change…
Manni, have you ever ridden a hunter? A good hunter? Over a hunter course?
A dressage horse change and a hunter change do not ride or feel the same, at all.
The are not the same thing. They should both be clean, united changes, but that’s where the similarity ends. Over the back and through are not really concepts in hunter riding.
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