Flying changes?

[findeight]

Huh? They were good in Hunter terms because he did not visibly break the rhythm and JF didn’t visibly sit down into him or bump him back to collect. It was seamless and a near perfect trip. He has had many other trips that are more average as are other changes. Even with JF . Cherry picking examples out of perfect trips to prove a meaningless point proves neither the right or the wrong here. Talk about apples and oranges…

[retiredhorse]

@BigMama1

Yes. And that horse is a perfect example of my point. Though his changes may be considered “good” when viewed through a dressage lens, they are not necessarily “good”'in hunter terms.

Rumba’s changes are fine/good/not a problem in hunterland. I prefer his whole way of going to the other grey horse/first example with front-to-back change (also fine/not a problem in hunterland, apparently, but would be an issue in dressage).

[Manni01]

@findeight

Huh? They were good in Hunter terms because he did not visibly break the rhythm and JF didn’t visibly sit down into him or bump him back to collect. It was seamless and a near perfect trip. He has had many other trips that are more average as are other changes. Even with JF . Cherry picking examples out of perfect trips to prove a meaningless point proves neither the right or the wrong here. Talk about apples and oranges…

Thank you findeight I like Rumba a lot!! And obviously he was a very successful hunter… It is kind of sad to see people twisting things just to prove their point, it may be right or wrong… But thats exactly what I expected… And although I never rode the Hunters I do figure that the main purpose is to show smooth effortless rounds, with the flying change effortless performed over the back. If the change looks effortless but is not 100% through thats tolerated as well… But that still does not change the fact that a smooth change over the back which is through is the more preferable than being behind with the back legs. And yes they don’t get specific scores for changes but I assume the judges still have an ideal in their head. otherwise they could not even judge… And it has nothing to do with apples and oranges…

[Pennywell_Bay]

@Manni01

But that still does not change the fact that a smooth change over the back which is through is the more preferable than being behind with the back legs. And yes they don’t get specific scores for changes but I assume the judges still have an ideal in their head. otherwise they could not even judge… And it has nothing to do with apples and oranges…

Yesssss.

[PonyPenny]

@GPjumper

Rumba has a more jumper way of going (as stated above) and in the high performances classes would score below a flatter moving, flatter changing horse. The purpose of a hunter is to show how easy and comfortable they are to ride over the long distances of the hunt field (yes it’s moved far away from a true field hunter that’s a topic for another day, another forum and lots of vodka). Those types of springy changes are not sought after and usually horses with those types of changes, score better in the derbies. You do not want a horse who screams “look I’m doing a flying change” with its body. You want one who makes it look seamless and effortless.

Rumba won many an undersaddle class. https://www.usef.org/search/horses/HorseReport/4958400?startDate=12%2F01%2F2006%2000%3A00%3A00&endDate=11%2F30%2F2018%2000%3A00%3A00

[GPjumper]

Yes, he won plenty of under saddles. My point was that he has a lot more hock action than many other hunters. Inclusive and Ovation come to mind in terms of flatter horses.

[McGurk]

I love it when people who have don’t know what hunters are supposed to be about, never shown hunters, never read the rule book, never looked at a judge’s card let alone judged a class express opinions about the way hunters should be judged. It’s very enlightening.

Of course, if you only look at other disciplines as to how they are different/inferior versions of your discipline, it does tend to skew your outlook.

It’s as if I watched Gran Prix dressage, without any concern for what the discipline was actually about, and said that Valegro and Totillas would have both made okay hunters if they could have been taught to go a little quieter and move a little flatter.

Or if someone asked me to compare apples and oranges, and being familiar with apples but never having seen an orange, opine: “I’m sure oranges are just like apples, after all, they’re both fruit, that fact that oranges are citrus fruit and apples are pome really doesn’t make any difference because I’m sure oranges are still very apple-like.”

[alibi_18]

I’ll ask the judge at the next show I’m scribing at this weekend how she would score a flat, croup high uncollected flyng change, yet clean, at 3rd level.

Also, I’ve recently wrote « on the aids? » with a « 5 » to a clean but clear autoswap.

[BigMama1]

@findeight

Huh? They were good in Hunter terms because he did not visibly break the rhythm and JF didn’t visibly sit down into him or bump him back to collect. It was seamless and a near perfect trip. He has had many other trips that are more average as are other changes. Even with JF . Cherry picking examples out of perfect trips to prove a meaningless point proves neither the right or the wrong here. Talk about apples and oranges…

Then let me re-word…Rumba’s changes are not “ideal” in hunterland and as many others have pointed out with all other things being equal, he would have been outscored by a flatter moving horse. I agree there is no right or wrong here - what’s desireable for one discipline may not be ideal for another. It doesn’t make one of the changes wrong, just different, which was the OP’s question.

[McGurk]

Rumba

would have been outscored by a flatter moving horse
Huh? Not even sure what that means. Not many horses outscored him in the Classics and Derbies, flatter moving or not. His way of going, jumping form and consistency were so exemplary that it was likely never a factor.

Hunters are about a horse that is efficient and pleasant to ride across varied terrain and natural obstacles. So hunter riders and judges just don’t care about the changes in the same way dressage riders and judges do.

The change itself is not judged in hunters. The absence of a change or a grossly poorly executed (skipping, one stride or more late behind) is penalized, but the change itself is not scored. So a horse that’s ring smart and lands correctly each time is scored exactly the same as a horse with perfect, united changes. Exactly the same, assuming their distances, jumping form, manners and way of going are similar. It’s about getting from point A to point B in an efficient, seamless manner.

Also, one of the reasons why a hunter judge might not see the half a stride late behind change, or consider it a factor in pinning, is that hunter judges 1.) don’t have scribes and 2.) are primarily focused on judging the horse’s jumping efforts. It’s very easy to camouflage a wonky change by asking a little early, in the first few strides after a fence, when the judge is still looking at her card. If it isn’t obviously sticky or late, it’s not going to effect the scoring.