Foal with constant diarrhea

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;7114405]
I guess that is up for debate. I don’t think foals need water and water can fill their stomach and reduce the amount of milk they take in.[/QUOTE]

Whenever I need to decide what is “natural” for a horse, I look to horses who survive with very little human intervention. Not just mustangs, but the QHs bred for ranch work out West. Most of those are raised with very little human intervention except in an emergency.

And I’ve never heard of them restricting water. Besides, in other animals drinking water does NOT cause diarrhea, unless the water has a contaminant. I can think of no baby mammal where restricting water is ever called for (in a normally health beast).

As I said, unless the baby is suffering from TRUE diarrhea, I would not be particularly alarmed. And as long as the stool has some form and is not real watery, it is NOT really diarrhea.

[Laurierace]

How about human infants? They never get water.

[eaconlee]

Have you asked the vet about trying kaolin pectin? It’s cheap by the gallon at the feed store, and just soothes and coats their system. If I gave it to my foal twice a day the diarrhea would stop. I gave about 20cc by mouth. They don’t mind the taste much.

[Zoey101]

Thanks all for the input… When this started, it was true diarrhea, as in he would just stand there and it would leak down his legs. But with the probiotics, lactaid, ulcergaurd, etc it became cow patty ish and then pretty darn solid (considering he really isnt getting any solid food) but i noticed it is moving back towards the more towards the cow patty with some remnant leaking, so just trying to control the situation before it gets leaky again. I would rather keep him on a cocktail than wean him early, so that is good to hear. And he loves any kind of medicine, weirdly, so he will take what ever I give him. I upped his lactaid and got the gastrogard so with that and the probiotics, i’ll see what happens - good idea about the metamucil too, thank you!

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;7114446]
How about human infants? They never get water.[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding? Of course they do!! In fact, per my ped nurse friend, MDs these days are often suggesting a bottle of water rather than all the juice moms use to feed. Obviously you don’t want to fill the kid up with just water, but yes, they DO get water.

Of course, helpless babies like humans can only get what they are offered, but babies like deer, cows, horses, etc. will begin to drink at (my observance on horses only) water at about 3-5 wks of age.

And we MUST remember that “cow patty” poops never killed a horse. Soft stool is better than hard, dry stool when is comes to horses.

So OP – my advice is to (slowly) back off every other week or so (like take 3-4 days to gradually reduce the amt. of whatever you are giving him) to re-evaluate. As long as the stools are not LIQUID, it’s NOT diarrhea and you are not in danger of dehydration (the big killer).

Once the babe starts eating hay or grass on a regular basis I have no doubt things will correct all on their own and you don’t want to be binding him up after that. That is just as big a danger as diarrhea, IMHO.

[Laurierace]

I am talking about infants. You don’t give infants water or juice.

[Kyzteke]

Again, I’m not a ped nurse, but at what point do you consider a baby NOT an infant? If a foal is nibbling on grass or hay or grain w/mom (mine start that at about 3-5 wks, but don’t really consume much till 2-3 mos), then I would not consider it an “infant.”

But again, we can agree to disagree. Horses were designed to exist very nicely on forage and water. Wild horses and range-bred horses are often “water restricted” simply because they may water only twice a day…the water source may be a long walk from the forage source.

However, once they are there I have no doubt the foal’s drink…and drink as much at they feel they need.

Just like on the track – it used to be thought you should NEVER give a hot horse as much water as they really want. As a hotwalker I would walk for an hour cooling down horses and just letting them drink afew sips each round.

Well, the endurance people have since proved that totally wrong – they will let their horses drink as much as they want for as long as they want any time they can.

I will never believe clean, fresh water is a danger to 98% of horses of any age…unless they fall in it and drown…

[New_Horizons]

I think there is some confusion. To clarify, I said that water should be withheld from the foal–not the dam–because it is known to cause diahhrea in foals. Foals need mare’s milk, not water. I agree with Laurierace. Those who start drinking water too soon nurse less and don’t receive the nutrition needed. Obviously, as they age they do start to drink more and more water as their system tolerates it, but young foals need mare’s milk.

Regarding foals eating dirt, I did not think it was a big deal either, until I read a discussion on the facebook Warmblood Breeders Group. Several breeders had foals die from eating dirt and the complications it caused. I would say that is a concern. If you don’t worry about it until the foal is older, you may not have a horse to worry about.

Personally, I think it is better to be safe than sorry. Why take the risk?

[ehwaz]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7115161]
\

Just like on the track – it used to be thought you should NEVER give a hot horse as much water as they really want. As a hotwalker I would walk for an hour cooling down horses and just letting them drink afew sips each round.

Well, the endurance people have since proved that totally wrong – they will let their horses drink as much as they want for as long as they want any time they can.

I will never believe clean, fresh water is a danger to 98% of horses of any age…unless they fall in it and drown…[/QUOTE]
While I don’t believe in the old 6 swallows rule, you need to consider that for the vast majority of endurance horses work at an aerobic pace, not anaerobic as flat track racers do. Because endurance horses go slower, they are not “hot” in the same way a flat track race horse is.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=ehwaz;7115423]
While I don’t believe in the old 6 swallows rule, you need to consider that for the vast majority of endurance horses work at an aerobic pace, not anaerobic as flat track racers do. Because endurance horses go slower, they are not “hot” in the same way a flat track race horse is.[/QUOTE]

Actually this varies widely. But when you cover 100 miles of super rough terrain in only 12 hrs., you are moving a real brisk pace, cantering when you can.

How fast you are going shouldn’t really matter. And as my own research goes, I’ve seen pasture horses gallop around like crazy, then drink their fill…never an issue. Seriously, how stupid would Nature have to be to design an animal that escapes by running fast, and make water toxic?

That is a HUMAN intervention formed by what we thought we know…there is no scientific proof (that I am aware of) this giving water to a hot horse will cause an issue.

If there is, I would love to see a link to the study (and I’m serious).

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=New Horizons;7115355]
I think there is some confusion. To clarify, I said that water should be withheld from the foal–not the dam–because it is known to cause diahhrea in foals. Foals need mare’s milk, not water. I agree with Laurierace. Those who start drinking water too soon nurse less and don’t receive the nutrition needed. Obviously, as they age they do start to drink more and more water as their system tolerates it, but young foals need mare’s milk.

Regarding foals eating dirt, I did not think it was a big deal either, until I read a discussion on the facebook Warmblood Breeders Group. Several breeders had foals die from eating dirt and the complications it caused. I would say that is a concern. If you don’t worry about it until the foal is older, you may not have a horse to worry about.

Personally, I think it is better to be safe than sorry. Why take the risk?[/QUOTE]

Because this is a 2 month old foal – hardily a newborn. Secondly, it is NOT really having diarrhea, as it turns out, just soft stools. Lastly, dehydration is a MUCH, MUCH more likely and dangerous issue to a foal that age (especially in this summer heat) then “over-watering”:rolleyes:.

If the foal does not have access to salt it is HIGHLY unlikely to drink too much water.

Besides, guys… let’s think this through: if the vet is right and the problem is the mare’s rich milk, the problem is NOT with the foal, it’s with the mare’s milk.

So treat the root issue – the MARE. Unless she is one of those terrible do’ers/heavy milkers (and they are out there, but rare), take a look at what SHE is getting.

No, don’t restrict water, but if she’s getting alfalfa, switch her to grass hay. Is she getting grain? Maybe cut it in half.

Seriously,restricting the foal’s water makes ZERO sense. Water does NOT cause diarrhea (unless it is contaminated or the foal has other issues). And it’s not the WATER that is causing the problem now, it’s the foal drinking too much/too rich milk.

Assuming it IS the mare’s milk, it actually makes MORE sense to let the foal drink more water so it doesn’t nurse as much.

But whatever…by all means carry on…

[New_Horizons]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7116007]

Seriously,restricting the foal’s water makes ZERO sense. Water does NOT cause diarrhea (unless it is contaminated or the foal has other issues). And it’s not the WATER that is causing the problem now, it’s the foal drinking too much/too rich milk…[/QUOTE]

As someone else said, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point, as it is proven that clean water does cause diahhrea in foals, period. But, no need to debate that point further as minds are not going to be changed either way.

I do agree that if the mare is indeed the issue that giving it grass hay (if it is getting alfalfa) may help.

OP, I hope that you will keep us posted and let us know how things turn out. Good luck!

[Zoey101]

Thanks all for the thoughts and advice, and I’m sorry if I unintentionally caused a debate… Tonight when I went to the barn, he was gassy and had runoff down his legs- he did pass manure (he likes to back up against the wall and now the stall walls look like a Jackson pollack painting!) and it was liquid then cow patty then a couple solid pieces then liquid- almost like the liquid surrounded the poo- sorry if that’s gross! He drinks from my mare a lot and I know they cut her grain (strategy) bc she was as fat as a tick and was eating alfalfa so switched her to grass hay but bc she is a princess she dropped weight fast and doesn’t love the grass hay as much, so we are slowly seeing what we can do to keep her at a normal weight, but I bet that since we slightly increased her grain this week which was when the poo issues started again, that’s where the problem is… I will keep him on his regimen of probiotics, lactaid and gastrogard until we can find a happy medium for everyone, but man, I never thought I would be so obsessed with manure! Thanks again for all the opinions, as I definitely want to consider all options!

[tucktaway]

I had one like this, this year. She was bright and happy, growing, etc. but had loose to liquid manure. Biosponge did nothing. The ONLY change I made was taking the mare off alfalfa cubes. Filly’s manure was normal w/in 24 hours. YMMV, but I’m sure it was a factor here.

[Kyzteke]

@New Horizons;7116724

As someone else said, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point, as it is proven that clean water does cause diahhrea in foals, period. But, no need to debate that point further as minds are not going to be changed either way.

Please do send me the link to these studies…I am anxious to read them.

[New_Horizons]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7117614]
Please do send me the link to these studies…I am anxious to read them.[/QUOTE]

Can’t send a link but I can tell you where to find them. There are several sources that reference that water containing minerals may cause diarrhea in some foals (James, R. 1990). The main source backing my statement and the statements of a couple of others can be found in Blessed are the Broodmares. On p.113 of the second edition, Dr. Lose states:

“Every effort should be made to prevent a foal from drinking water because this will decrease its milk intake, or it may stop nursing if its fluid requirements are satisfied by water. The effect upon the foal’s gastrointestinal tract is not only undesireable but critical. Intractable, debilitating diarrhea will soon develop in foals that substitute water for milk…Until the foal reaches the age of four months be alert to this dangerous water-drinking syndrome. When such a condition is recognized, remove the water source…”

I have experienced this, as well as a fellow breeder I know. It doesn’t affect all foals the same, thankfully, so different people are just referencing what they have experienced. It doesn’t make one person right and the other wrong, per se; it depends on the situation and the foal.

Zoey, there is another book (Griffin, Gore, 1998) that talks about what to do if a foal has diarrhea bc the mare’s milk is too rich. They suggest milking the mare out two or three times a day and not preventing the foal from nursing, as that should help. They also say that the problem will correst itself as the foal grows and its nutritional needs increase. I can’t remember if your vet suggested that, but it might be worth a try. If your mare is a heavy milk producer, that might help–hopefully!

Also, if you google this topic, there are several past threads on it on COTH (2011, 2010, etc.) and on some other forums. The conversations are similar to this thread, from the few posts I read, but you might get some ideas.

Please excuse any typos. I am writing on my phone, which is very tricky and takes forever!

ETA: I haven’t purchased the Hayes book on foaling yet. Does anyone know if she addresses this?

[CrowneDragon]

OP, has your vet cultured his poop to rule out an infection?

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=New Horizons;7118054]
Can’t send a link but I can tell you where to find them. There are several sources that reference that water containing minerals may cause diarrhea in some foals (James, R. 1990). The main source backing my statement and the statements of a couple of others can be found in Blessed are the Broodmares. On p.113 of the second edition, Dr. Lose states:

“Every effort should be made to prevent a foal from drinking water because this will decrease its milk intake, or it may stop nursing if its fluid requirements are satisfied by water. The effect upon the foal’s gastrointestinal tract is not only undesireable but critical. Intractable, debilitating diarrhea will soon develop in foals that substitute water for milk…Until the foal reaches the age of four months be alert to this dangerous water-drinking syndrome. When such a condition is recognized, remove the water source…”

ETA: I haven’t purchased the Hayes book on foaling yet. Does anyone know if she addresses this?[/QUOTE]
…

Yes, after spending 3 hrs on the Net I have tracked this information to BATBM…a book published almost 40 yrs ago. A study done in '90? Well, that’s only 24 yrs ago…hardily current info.

Other than Blessed, I have not been able to find ONE SINGLE article from an expert source mentioning this…although many stress how important hydration is in a youngster with diarrhea. There ARE references to foals picking up various bacteria/contaminants from water, but that is…hmmm…contaminated water.

And I have read Hayes book cover to cover a million times…she never says anything about it…

Give me a currrent source…anyone?

Again, people can do what they want, but the reason I’m so adamant about this is exactly what I stated before: in terms of “dangerous things to do with a foal w/diarrhea”, I considering withholding hydration right up there at the top of the list…

[hluing]

I have had three foals like this (all colts oddly). The first two were in the same foal crop and I spent a TON of money on vet workup and meds for those two boys. Like the OP says, sometimes it was liquid, mostly like cow patty or paste. A formed stool would cause celebration in the barn, lol. It started when they were a few weeks old and they were always bright and 100% as far as behavior. Yet never found anything and eventually (weeks later) I decided to just stop all the biosponge, probotic paste etc and watch it. They were fine and both outgrew it or stopped after weaning. Never had any issues later. When I got the third case, his started loose from day 3 of life. This freaked me out a bit and vet worked up and he was also fine. Same pattern continued but once he was no longer an “infant” I just did watchful waiting too and nothing bad happened. Vet supported this and he too outgrew it (even before weaning).

Bottom line, you have my sympathy. After these three cases I developed a hatred of foal diarrhea (even the chronic, non serious type). Every foal I cross my finger not to be on endless bottom patrol, lol. Hang in there!

[Zoey101]

Just an update, yes, the vet ruled out infection, and on his increased lactaid, gastrogard and probiotics, he is back to cow-patty poo. It’s a small victory. He is perfectly happy and healthy in every other way, so hoping that when he is weaned, he can firm up even more. I also noticed that my mare’s poo, while not cow patty-ish, was softer than usual, and I know there was a new cut of hay in the barn, so maybe it was just richer hay. In any case, I am monitoring like crazy, and I am sure people think I am weird but I don’t care. If anyone gets the Chronicle, he is actually on page 23 of the Derby Preview issue, as I took out an ad thanking everyone who helped me breed him- just so you have an idea of the adorableness that is causing me to be obsessed with poop!