For the peanut roller haters

[Luseride]

[QUOTE=abrant;7847865]
I walk away feeling the same way when I judge. People get upset thinking I am not willing to use anything outside the box when I judge an open show but really if those horses are the only ones doing anything close to WP, I have to use them. Overall with WP I am looking for a solid consistent horse. The horse with its nose in the air evading the entire ride in not going pin over a consistant slow low headed horse and that’s not because I prefer a pokey horse.

Keep your faith in open shows and try to understand that the judge has to place the horses in the ring and they are not always making a sweeping statement about their beliefs.

I showed my TB who did the AA hunters last year in an open fun show at the barn. He’d been out of work for 11 months due to lameness and was back under saddle for 2 weeks. He was HOT. We won both our classes against stock horses. Class is class. Judges will reward it when they see it.[/QUOTE]

You brought out good points. Some have said not to use horses or to only start placing at third or fourth but when the club doing the paying says place ten then that is what I will do.

[Another_Poster]

Is the 4 beat gait y’all are talking about when the canter is messed up? Like at a lope, the right front and right hind should move together, correct? But instead the right front and left hind are hitting the ground together? Is that what 4 beating means?

[NoSuchPerson]

No.

A lope is a 3 beat gait. On the right lead, the “beats” are (1) left hind (2) right hind and left front together (3) right front. If the right hind and left front each hit the ground separately rather than together, that makes it a 4 beat lope.

If the right front and right hind are moving together, the horse is pacing, not loping.

[KIloBright]

Good insight by abrant
It is easy for a horse moving on, to perform a true three beat lope
A four beat lope is man made, when a horse is asked to move slower then his level of strength, training or ability allow
Many well trained horses will start to four beat, ridden by their non pro or youth riders, as easy for a well trained horse to keep the top line and speed he has been trained to do, but one has to actually ride them, and know when they are starting to fall apart, and this is another reason one sees people at open shows, that have bought a well trained pleasure horse, but don’t have the skill, knowledge or ability to keep that horse moving true
When a horse four beats, the second beat of that three beat stride breaks down into two, as described by NoSuchPerson

[Flash44]

With a 3 beat gait, the rider’s seat gently moves back and forth with the horse in a smooth motion. With the incorrect 4 beat lope, the riders seat hits a “bump” during the forward motion, due to the extra foot striking the ground. It’s clearly visible, and sometimes easier to pick up than watching the horse’s legs.

[Plumcreek]

[QUOTE=Luseride;7812925]
I dislike the horses with their heads down, four beating, with no impulsion. Let me say that first.

Today I judged a show and had to place that type of horse. There was a horse that moved much better in the class but he missed a lead, spooked at something, and was inconsistent at the jog. I had to use the horses I did not like as much simply because they were consistent.

Maybe what we need is just some better movers that are nice and broke.[/QUOTE]

At the recet AQHA World Show, in WP the judges DID do what every judge CAN do: Ask for slightly extended gaits within 10 strides after calling for the next gait. This will make the too low/slow but consistant horses you must use, as above, better in the way they move.

Also, I ring stewarded for my state QH Fall Futurities one year in windy weather. In the first WP class, one by one the judge had to lose nice young horses that spooked or broke, until he was left with a four-beater with no expression as his winner. I think he was embarrassed, so for the remaining WP classes, he stood facing the part of the rail with the least distractions, and judged about a 40 foot span, hoping that the nicer horses could hold it together for that distance. And they did.

[KIloBright]

Yes, there is are definate disqualifications, far as placing,like spooking, missing a lead ect, and why I have had good judges tell me they don’t
eliminate judge’
mANY OF us have have shown under judges that do use the elimination process, not confident to place a class in a relative frame of time , but inside have you go endlessly around, esp at the lope, waiting for a horse to make a mistake
Good judges don’t do that, as they don’t want to place a horse above a truly out standing mover, just because that mediocre or even poor mover, does not break
The placing horse against horse, is also the major flaw,in that system of judging, versus using a scoring system, and many classes thus are scored, although a scoring system for a rail class is not really feasible
Trail equitation, reining, western riding all use a scoring system. Sure, you place those classes according to the scores, BUT, you sure as heck demonstrate that the entire class was not up to par, when that winning horse earns a score that would not have had him placed against better horses
A good judge also stands in one corner of the ring, with just enough room for the horses to pass behind him, thus eliminating the huge mistake some judges make, just watching one long side of the arena, and horses being schooled and placing behind his back
As a judge, faced with an entire class of horses, with none of them moving correctly, you either plya safe, and place that class form first place down< OR you make a statement, and start placing form third on down or so
Also, you cAN JUDGE BY THE RULES, and they do state, that if a horse carries his head so that his poll (or maybe is it the tip of the ears?? ), so that it (they are below the level of the whither for more that 5 CONSECUTIVE strides, that is a disqualification. Of Course, so is spooking, bucking, so either place nothing , or get stuck placing horses that should not be placed

[KIloBright]

Yes, there is are definate disqualifications, far as placing,like spooking, missing a lead ect, and why I have had good judges tell me they don’t
eliminate judge’
mANY OF us have have shown under judges that do use the elimination process, not confident to place a class in a relative frame of time , but inside have you go endlessly around, esp at the lope, waiting for a horse to make a mistake
Good judges don’t do that, as they don’t want to place a horse above a truly out standing mover, just because that mediocre or even poor mover, does not break
The placing horse against horse, is also the major flaw,in that system of judging, versus using a scoring system, and many classes thus are scored, although a scoring system for a rail class is not really feasible
Trail equitation, reining, western riding all use a scoring system. Sure, you place those classes according to the scores, BUT, you sure as heck demonstrate that the entire class was not up to par, when that winning horse earns a score that would not have had him placed against better horses
A good judge also stands in one corner of the ring, with just enough room for the horses to pass behind him, thus eliminating the huge mistake some judges make, just watching one long side of the arena, and horses being schooled and placing behind his back
As a judge, faced with an entire class of horses, with none of them moving correctly, you either plya safe, and place that class form first place down< OR you make a statement, and start placing form third on down or so
Also, you cAN JUDGE BY THE RULES, and they do state, that if a horse carries his head so that his poll (or maybe is it the tip of the ears?? ), so that it (they are below the level of the whither for more that 5 CONSECUTIVE strides, that is a disqualification. Of Course, so is spooking, bucking, so either place nothing , or get stuck placing horses that should not be placed

[Flash44]

Have had a judge decide NOT to test any further during an eq class because he did not want to “lose” the winner! Guess he didn’t have too much confidence in the class as a whole.

[Beverley]

KiloBright wrote:

“mANY OF us have have shown under judges that do use the elimination process, not confident to place a class in a relative frame of time , but inside have you go endlessly around, esp at the lope, waiting for a horse to make a mistake
Good judges don’t do that, as they don’t want to place a horse above a truly out standing mover, just because that mediocre or even poor mover, does not break”

Um, the former has been pretty much the norm for decades, based on my experience. But indeed, clever judges do find a way to ‘use’ what they want to use. In about '71, hot day in Galveston and my horse Did Not Want To Be There and knew very well that hey, just raising the head and trotting a little fast will get the gate. Except the judge liked him upon entry, and so for him and I suppose others he wanted to use, would simply whip around and watch the other horses if he perceived one of his picks might be about to do something untoward. In the end he pulled me in fourth, and the horse was so disgusted that he executed a huge buck right behind the judge as we were loping in to line up. Crowd laughed, judge shrugged, he saw nothing, and that was that. Poor horse was deflated, and so when my sister took him in the jr. class later he just sighed and performed perfectly and won the class.

[ytr45]

Can someone please post a youtube link to a wp horse that is doing the correct, AQHA-approved, head above the withers gaits?

I am curious to see what it looks like when its right.

In all the wp stuff i’ve seen, (which isn’t that much), the horse is completely downhill and on the forehand.

[Another_Poster]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7904499]
No.

A lope is a 3 beat gait. On the right lead, the “beats” are (1) left hind (2) right hind and left front together (3) right front. If the right hind and left front each hit the ground separately rather than together, that makes it a 4 beat lope.

If the right front and right hind are moving together, the horse is pacing, not loping.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this! :yes:

[Plumcreek]

Huntin Big Dreams is my pick of the WP horses.
Scroll down for photo:
http://www.aqha.com/Showing/World-Show/2012/Classes/Open-Western/Junior-Western-Pleasure.aspx

Finally there is a video of him, not a good one. He is the white-gray horse, and this is more canted then I have seen him in the past in person.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ubxddeMis

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=ytr45;7922580]
Can someone please post a youtube link to a wp horse that is doing the correct, AQHA-approved, head above the withers gaits?

I am curious to see what it looks like when its right.

In all the wp stuff i’ve seen, (which isn’t that much), the horse is completely downhill and on the forehand.[/QUOTE]

Here you go

http://www.horsechannel.com/western-horse-training/aqha-western-pleasure-judging.aspx

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hREmgyk4DoE
You can buy this DVD

http://americashorsedaily.com/showing-to-win-western-pleasure-dvd/

[IndysMom]

I wish they’d do away with the whole “head too low” business. My horse has been DQ’d in the past for this and I NEVER trained him to carry his head that low. He.just.does. Now I spend my time trying to get his head UP. Let’s judge them on something other than where the head is located.

[2LaZ2race]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7932782]
Here you go

http://www.horsechannel.com/western-horse-training/aqha-western-pleasure-judging.aspx

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hREmgyk4DoE
You can buy this DVD

http://americashorsedaily.com/showing-to-win-western-pleasure-dvd/[/QUOTE]

I don’t really like the lope in either of those horses (the Practice Judging Western youtube). When I think of a canter or lope I think “one two three, one two thing” for those I see… I don’t even know!