I dislike the horses with their heads down, four beating, with no impulsion. Let me say that first.
Today I judged a show and had to place that type of horse. There was a horse that moved much better in the class but he missed a lead, spooked at something, and was inconsistent at the jog. I had to use the horses I did not like as much simply because they were consistent.
Maybe what we need is just some better movers that are nice and broke.
As they say, you can only judge what is presented to you that day.
I’ve been in the same position. I was judging a 4H schooling show. I really didn’t want to use the pokey peanut roller, but it was the most consistent, best mover, and made no mistakes all at the same time. Sometimes ya gotta use them.
BUT! You can start each class anew and maybe the others will get their act together.
Luckily the one that was terrible Western came back in English and was wonderful. I did tell his rider I liked him better when he was able to move out.
That reminds me of a funny story. We had a mare that was pretty good in WP, but had a true 3 beat lope and while very slow, she would occasionally pass a 4 beating peanut roller and you never want to be so fast in a WP class that you pass someone.
Well one day we took her to a local show that attracts all the breed showers. My nephew was riding her and DH and I were just there to watch. He took her in a class and won. We were excited because my nephew beat out a couple of peanut rollers, but our mare was clearly the best mover with a true 3 beat lope and she nailed everything.
The judge heard us whoop in celebration when they were called first and looked out the window because she recognized mine and DH’s voices. She is an “R” judge (highest ranking for a HJ judge) who I know well that was only judging the show as a favor to her MIL who is high up in the saddle club. I had no idea she was the judge and she had never met my WP mare before, only my HJ horses. She then tried to talk me into trying her over fences because she was such a great mover :lol:
[QUOTE=Luseride;7812925]
Maybe what we need is just some better movers that are nice and broke.[/QUOTE]
That’s exactly what’s needed, I just wish there was a happy medium.
Last open show I went to, I only showed HUS but I stayed to watch the western day that weekend since I was doing showmanship. The judge disqualified any horse with their poll below the line of their withers, which I thought was an interesting choice but she actually ended up placing the better moving but spooky types that were in snaffle bits as opposed to the slow as molasses horses. It was an interesting weekend, lol, but I am all for pinning horses that move better.
Granted I am not a judge … but I thought Western Pleasure is supposed to be judged on the way a horse moves?
Not judged on which horse didn’t spook?
Of course I don’t know what circuit you judged or what rules govern that circuit, but looking at the AQHA rule book, you can get disqualified for carrying the head too low (aka peanut roller) if the horse’s ears are consistently below the point of the wither, or can get DQ’ed if they consistently carry their head behind the vertical.
Yes, you will get faulted for being on the wrong lead. And you will get faulted for spooking (because you are breaking gait, and possibly also breaking forward motion). But you also get faulted for sometimes carrying the head behind the vertical (consistently doing so will get you DQ’ed), being overly canted at the lope (where the outside hind leg is further inward than the inside hind leg), head sometimes being carried too low (again, doing so consistently will get you DQ’ed), and excessive slowness or excessive speed will also get your faulted.
So feel free to explain yourself further if you wish, but I don’t see why you gave a faults to the horse that missed a lead and spooked, but did not fault (or DQ) the horse who’s head was probably behind the vertical the whole time, and ears were probably lower than the wither the whole time.
Or why you faulted the horse who had an inconsistent jog but did not fault the horse that had a 4-beat gallop?
Unless I am totally reading and interpreting your post wrong, but this is exactly why the peanut rollers still win in the western pleasure ring. There ARE faults against peanut rollers but those faults need to actually be applied and/or the horse should be DQ’ed. (according to the AQHA rule book, anyway)
[QUOTE=sabinomare;7817549]
The judge disqualified any horse with their poll below the line of their withers, which I thought was an interesting choice but she actually ended up placing the better moving but spooky types that were in snaffle bits as opposed to the slow as molasses horses. [/QUOTE]
Granted it will depend on the rules of the circuit, but I don’t find that to be an INTERESTING choice at all because the judge was actually following the rule book.
Those horses ARE supposed to be DQ’ed, according to the AQHA rules.
[QUOTE=beau159;7818545]
Granted I am not a judge … but I thought Western Pleasure is supposed to be judged on the way a horse moves?
Not judged on which horse didn’t spook?
Of course I don’t know what circuit you judged or what rules govern that circuit, but looking at the AQHA rule book, you can get disqualified for carrying the head too low (aka peanut roller) if the horse’s ears are consistently below the point of the wither, or can get DQ’ed if they consistently carry their head behind the vertical.
Yes, you will get faulted for being on the wrong lead. And you will get faulted for spooking (because you are breaking gait, and possibly also breaking forward motion). But you also get faulted for sometimes carrying the head behind the vertical (consistently doing so will get you DQ’ed), being overly canted at the lope (where the outside hind leg is further inward than the inside hind leg), head sometimes being carried too low (again, doing so consistently will get you DQ’ed), and excessive slowness or excessive speed will also get your faulted.
So feel free to explain yourself further if you wish, but I don’t see why you gave a faults to the horse that missed a lead and spooked, but did not fault (or DQ) the horse who’s head was probably behind the vertical the whole time, and ears were probably lower than the wither the whole time.
Or why you faulted the horse who had an inconsistent jog but did not fault the horse that had a 4-beat gallop?
Unless I am totally reading and interpreting your post wrong, but this is exactly why the peanut rollers still win in the western pleasure ring. There ARE faults against peanut rollers but those faults need to actually be applied and/or the horse should be DQ’ed. (according to the AQHA rule book, anyway)[/QUOTE]
The horse was not consistent at any gait, even the walk because the rider was trying to get him slow even at that one. I will not list all the faults but they were many when the horse was being forced to go slow. Basically if he had been ridden smarter I could have used him but the rider was trying to conform with poor results.
None of the horses were consistently four beating, none were canted, and only one was behind the vertical for more than a moment or two.
This was an open show following AQHA rules.
[QUOTE=beau159;7818554]
Granted it will depend on the rules of the circuit, but I don’t find that to be an INTERESTING choice at all because the judge was actually following the rule book.
Those horses ARE supposed to be DQ’ed, according to the AQHA rules.[/QUOTE]
If the horse was six or over and in a snaffle that is a DQ.
[QUOTE=Luseride;7818879]
If the horse was six or over and in a snaffle that is a DQ.[/QUOTE]
The poster did not specify that the horse(s) in a snaffle were over 6. If it was an open horse show, they very well could have had mixed aged horses in the class, young and old.
[QUOTE=Luseride;7812925]
Today I judged a show and had to place that type of horse. There was a horse that moved much better in the class but he missed a lead, spooked at something, and was inconsistent at the jog…[/QUOTE]
I remember a hunter class at St Luke’s in Anchorage Ky in the late 1960s where the judge refused to give a first place ribbon. The class was so bad that she started with second place
One thing to remember is that AQHA rules are written with an expectation that the horses will all be somewhat decent. At an open show, you can have horses all over the map, and most organizers won’t be happy if you don’t use all the ribbons. I won’t disqualify an otherwise nice horse for being low with his head, but I will place him lower…but I won’t place him lower than a horse that is dangerous, rushing, severely tossing his head, uneven mover and so on.
I will however, mention to that competitor that they placed lower because of the horse’s low head set and that it could be subject for disqualification at higher level shows.
If it is a novice rider or young kids class, then the low head doesn’t bother me as long as the horse is otherwise pleasant…for those classes I want safe over anything else.
[QUOTE=Luseride;7812925]
I dislike the horses with their heads down, four beating, with no impulsion. Let me say that first.
Today I judged a show and had to place that type of horse. There was a horse that moved much better in the class but he missed a lead, spooked at something, and was inconsistent at the jog. I had to use the horses I did not like as much simply because they were consistent.
Maybe what we need is just some better movers that are nice and broke.[/QUOTE]
First, what level of show are you judging???
peanut rollers and 4 beaters don’t place at major breed shows, and if they are used, then someone needs to protest the judging.
What judging card do you hold and what shows have you judged???
It takes a great deal of training for a horse to move slow, yet correct, esp at the lope, rated off of seat and legs, on a loose rein
I have judged light horse shows and 4H shows, and it is often a trade off, or you have to disqualify the entire class in some cases.
I mean, do you knock the horse harder that is on the wrong lead half way around the ring, more than a horse that is only on the wrong lead for a few strides, but travels with head up and leaning on the bit???
I have also been judged at those types of shows by someone from a strictly English background, and to whom all horses able to move slow at the lope are declared to be four beating, when in fact they are performing a true three beat lope
If you strongly believe that none of the horses in that class deserved to be placed first or second, you can make a statement and start your placings at third, but you better be right, as some people in the stands just might be very qualified to judge your call!!!
Or why you faulted the horse who had an inconsistent jog but did not fault the horse that had a 4-beat gallop?
Interestingly enough, a true gallop is a four beat gait
What is disqualified in a western class is a four beat lope, as a true lope, like a canter is a three beat gait
The ability for a horse to perform a true three beat lope, slow, raises the degree of difficulty, training and ability. Any horse can do a three beat lope while moving on, but when forced beyond his ability to lope as slow as possible, the second beat of that three beat stride breaks down into two beats
(ie, instead of the inside hind and outside front hitting the ground at the same time, forming one beat, those legs hit at different times, thus creating that two beat in the second stride
[QUOTE=CHT;7819666]
One thing to remember is that AQHA rules are written with an expectation that the horses will all be somewhat decent. At an open show, you can have horses all over the map, and most organizers won’t be happy if you don’t use all the ribbons. I won’t disqualify an otherwise nice horse for being low with his head, but I will place him lower…but I won’t place him lower than a horse that is dangerous, rushing, severely tossing his head, uneven mover and so on.
I will however, mention to that competitor that they placed lower because of the horse’s low head set and that it could be subject for disqualification at higher level shows.
If it is a novice rider or young kids class, then the low head doesn’t bother me as long as the horse is otherwise pleasant…for those classes I want safe over anything else.[/QUOTE]
I had to place ten so did not DQ even when a pattern was off, just used the rider much lower. Safe is always the best. 
I do know what a correct lope is and how they should move. This was a local show that qualifies for a state show over the year. Slow does not mean incorrect.
I placed the class for which horse was the best of the ones I had to chose from in that class on that day.
You Have to DQ 4 beaters ,and both NSBA and major stock horse rules state that if the horse carries his head so that the tip of the ears are below the height of the withers for more than 5 consecutive strides, that is a disqualification
Yes, small shows are schooling shows, however, what do spectators at those shows and exhibitors learn, if horses either going in correctly, or going off pattern are placed??
Off pattern is a DQ, even if the entire class has to be disqualified
I have no qualms doing so, and eliminated 4H youths at a regional show that two handed in the trail class
KIloBright - tough row to hoe!
I walk away feeling the same way when I judge. People get upset thinking I am not willing to use anything outside the box when I judge an open show but really if those horses are the only ones doing anything close to WP, I have to use them. Overall with WP I am looking for a solid consistent horse. The horse with its nose in the air evading the entire ride in not going pin over a consistant slow low headed horse and that’s not because I prefer a pokey horse.
Keep your faith in open shows and try to understand that the judge has to place the horses in the ring and they are not always making a sweeping statement about their beliefs.
I showed my TB who did the AA hunters last year in an open fun show at the barn. He’d been out of work for 11 months due to lameness and was back under saddle for 2 weeks. He was HOT. We won both our classes against stock horses. Class is class. Judges will reward it when they see it.
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