For those serious about Western Pleasure - a video

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=RegentLion;8629876]

So to grind your teeth and assume that people are forcing average horses into these slow lopes and jogs is simply not accurate. These horses have been bred to go slow and they do so naturally. Not saying that’s good or right, but at least in my experience, it’s not a stretch to ask most of these horses to do what they’re doing.[/QUOTE]

eh, many are forcing them to be slow and collect when it’s not their nature or breeding.

there are an awful lot of 4 beat lopes on that video. I think the tide is starting to turn to a more forward impression (not fast, just more correct back to front)

Also, many are leaving WP for ranch, western dressage, competitive trail (the one where they do the indoor mountain courses, not sure the correct name), natural horsemanship, etc

[aktill]

>These horses have been bred to go slow and they do so naturally.

They do so SELECTIVELY, based off their breeding. People have used breeding to create a pattern.

Just because we can doesn’t mean we should.

There are foals that come out like this:
http://www.hagyard.com/custdocs/Angular%20Limb%20Deformities.pdf

…but few would argue that since these things are occurring naturally, so to speak, that these animals should stay that way.

[ChasPonyCat]

[QUOTE=RegentLion;8629876]
I am not a WP rider, but it is the predominant discipline in my area. There is a significant mix of “good” WP and “backyard kick n pull” WP.

I did dabble in it for a short time and found it really interesting. With the trainer I rode with, there was no strange training methods, harsh bits, tying the horse to the saddle etc.

The point I want to really make here is that a lot of these horses ARE bred to go this slow. A fellow boarder at my barn picked up a well bred colt (just turned 2) at an auction. He was un started.

His “go to” speed on the lunge is a jog or lope and he’s quite slow. Very similar to the horses in the video. He’s on ride #9 under saddle and his jog is slow slow slow. The rider isn’t asking for slow. He just offers it. The canter is unbalanced but as soon as he figures out balance I’m betting he’s going to be slow there too. She lunges him 5-10 min and rides 5-10 min. He’s going to be a cute WP horse. Interestingly enough he’s bred to be a HUS horse and will probably be 17.2 when he’s done growing. It will be interesting to watch his development.

He is just bred that way… Just as dressage horses are bred for wildly elastic uphill gaits.

So to grind your teeth and assume that people are forcing average horses into these slow lopes and jogs is simply not accurate. These horses have been bred to go slow and they do so naturally. Not saying that’s good or right, but at least in my experience, it’s not a stretch to ask most of these horses to do what they’re doing.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying, and I have seen these babies that move slowly naturally. However, I wonder about a HUS bred Colt whose go to speed is a slow, slow, slow jog. What does that say about their hunt seat horses?

I know, I know, different strokes.

[ChasPonyCat]

[QUOTE=RegentLion;8629876]
I am not a WP rider, but it is the predominant discipline in my area. There is a significant mix of “good” WP and “backyard kick n pull” WP.

I did dabble in it for a short time and found it really interesting. With the trainer I rode with, there was no strange training methods, harsh bits, tying the horse to the saddle etc.

The point I want to really make here is that a lot of these horses ARE bred to go this slow. A fellow boarder at my barn picked up a well bred colt (just turned 2) at an auction. He was un started.

His “go to” speed on the lunge is a jog or lope and he’s quite slow. Very similar to the horses in the video. He’s on ride #9 under saddle and his jog is slow slow slow. The rider isn’t asking for slow. He just offers it. The canter is unbalanced but as soon as he figures out balance I’m betting he’s going to be slow there too. She lunges him 5-10 min and rides 5-10 min. He’s going to be a cute WP horse. Interestingly enough he’s bred to be a HUS horse and will probably be 17.2 when he’s done growing. It will be interesting to watch his development.

He is just bred that way… Just as dressage horses are bred for wildly elastic uphill gaits.

So to grind your teeth and assume that people are forcing average horses into these slow lopes and jogs is simply not accurate. These horses have been bred to go slow and they do so naturally. Not saying that’s good or right, but at least in my experience, it’s not a stretch to ask most of these horses to do what they’re doing.[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying, and I have seen these babies that move slowly naturally. However, I wonder about a HUS bred Colt whose go to speed is a slow, slow, slow jog. What does that say about their hunt seat horses?

I know, I know, different strokes.

[ezduzit]

I feel like an outsider when it comes to discussing wp because I ride a Morgan. We have suspension, jump and a soft jog with lifted knees. My horse is built to have more collected gaits, rather than defining them as slow. In fact, he’s built so collected that I have to work to get him to stretch out…we work on the stretchy circle…seeking the bit.

Not all western horses are of the stock breed types. Here’s a nice example of a Morgan for the pleasure ring. http://www.morganshowcase.com/Listing.php?HorseName=Indian%20Creek%20Broadway%20Joe&Page=Video

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=RegentLion;8629876]
I am not a WP rider, but it is the predominant discipline in my area. There is a significant mix of “good” WP and “backyard kick n pull” WP.

I did dabble in it for a short time and found it really interesting. With the trainer I rode with, there was no strange training methods, harsh bits, tying the horse to the saddle etc.

The point I want to really make here is that a lot of these horses ARE bred to go this slow. A fellow boarder at my barn picked up a well bred colt (just turned 2) at an auction. He was un started.

His “go to” speed on the lunge is a jog or lope and he’s quite slow. Very similar to the horses in the video. He’s on ride #9 under saddle and his jog is slow slow slow. The rider isn’t asking for slow. He just offers it. The canter is unbalanced but as soon as he figures out balance I’m betting he’s going to be slow there too. She lunges him 5-10 min and rides 5-10 min. He’s going to be a cute WP horse. Interestingly enough he’s bred to be a HUS horse and will probably be 17.2 when he’s done growing. It will be interesting to watch his development.

He is just bred that way… Just as dressage horses are bred for wildly elastic uphill gaits.

So to grind your teeth and assume that people are forcing average horses into these slow lopes and jogs is simply not accurate. These horses have been bred to go slow and they do so naturally. Not saying that’s good or right, but at least in my experience, it’s not a stretch to ask most of these horses to do what they’re doing.[/QUOTE]

I have one of those. Foot’s always on the gas pedal. The minute I even think whoa we are whoa. A very pretty correct mover who is just slooooowwwww and very happy to be that way.

[Plumcreek]

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8630349]

Also, many are leaving WP for ranch, western dressage, competitive trail (the one where they do the indoor mountain courses, not sure the correct name), natural horsemanship, etc[/QUOTE]

Believe it that the above defections are fueling the WP trainers’ sudden interest in fixing the problem, as in Ranch Riding = 40 entries, WP = 10 entries

[Doctracy]

Is it just me or do they not have as much stride length and drive from the hock as 10-15 years ago?
And,I have bred a few of world champions pleasure,western riding,trail,horsemanship,lunge line in APHA and AQHA trail/horsemanship but I haven’t been real active in showing for awhile.

[Unfforgettable]

I’ve got no problem with slow…as long as the gaits are pure and the horse is moving straight. The majority of WP horses do not do a two beat jog, and they four beat and crab sideways at the lope.

[Aces_N_Eights]

[QUOTE=Plumcreek;8630748]
Believe it that the above defections are fueling the WP trainers’ sudden interest in fixing the problem, as in Ranch Riding = 40 entries, WP = 10 entries[/QUOTE]

It won’t take long before the ranch style classes won’t resemble anything they were meant to showcase much like western pleasure or halter has evolved over the years.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Aces N Eights;8634133]
It won’t take long before the ranch style classes won’t resemble anything they were meant to showcase much like western pleasure or halter has evolved over the years.[/QUOTE]

I sure hope not, but I wouldn’t bet against it.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=Plumcreek;8629306]
At the lower levels, judges should ask for the speed to be increased at every gait, which they can do.

Judges need to reach deep and find a LITTLE BIT of backbone. One futurity I was a ring steward for, many years ago, was held outside on a very windy day. After all the blown-up two year old WP horses were eliminated, Mr. Judge was left with an almost-4 beating horse to win the class. Judge was quietly embarrassed, and the next classes, he stood and stared at a 50’ section of rail, furthest from the blowing distractions.[/QUOTE]
He should not have been embarrassed as that is the decision he had to make. If not why do we even have a class. Just walk, jog and lope each horse individually in front of the judges and call it a day. I think that we may be thinking about what has happened to WP in a round about way. By placing so much emphasis on the horses that can be collected and go slow we are forcing the average movers average conformation horses into frames that they are not suitable for- leading to ring sourness and lameness. There needs to me more emphasis on completing the class and more variability to what is acceptable for speed and head carriage. Trying to force square pegs into round holes has led to this debacle in part.
Also horses learn to four beat at the lope really really quickly and easily. It is not a mortal sin in my book. The uncandenced jog is much worse.
Crabbing came to be because from the center of the pen it gives the optical illusion of a deeper driving hock. Once again from when the entire emphasis of the class is based on movement alone.
Judges need to give and take as in well this horse is the better mover but gosh darn he is busy in the mouth or that horse was very relaxed in the face but doesn’t drive very deep. The judge needs to decide which to reward and which to discount. And competitors need to stop thinking that one thing is the only thing that matters.
Not the entire solution but maybe a start.
And it has improved but other fads have started.
And as to ranch riding I hate to see it become the place where reiners go who can’t ;make it in the reining pen. That seems to have leveled out somewhat.
There are problems of the same sort in all disciplines. It seems to come with human nature.

[Plumcreek]

My BFF is a major player in Ranch Riding, so I watch a lot of classes. I do not believe it will get dumbed down. Judges are placing the horses who really move out at all gaits, and the transitions are most important, so training, a horse that will listen through fairly intricate patterns, not just a slow reiner, are being rewarded.

[Aces_N_Eights]

The whole idea of the ranch classes in the AQHA is dumbed down. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad the pendulum is swinging the other way, but its for the wrong reasons from my point of view. AQHA has been about the $$$ not bettering the breed. I feel with the coming of the “ranch” classes has been a way for them to cash in on the ranch horse fad. Maybe I am looking at it wrong but I agree with those who said it created a niche for the horses that can’t compete with those super slow western pleasure horses, whether it be correct or not, or the reiners that cant make the cut, whatever. Some would say the same about western dressage as well. Just curious as to how many horses that compete in the ranch horse classes actually are ranch horses and not just go to the occasional branding or ship calves at the neighbors?

[RodeoFTW]

[QUOTE=Unfforgettable;8633641]
I’ve got no problem with slow…as long as the gaits are pure and the horse is moving straight. The majority of WP horses do not do a two beat jog, and they four beat and crab sideways at the lope.[/QUOTE]

My biggest problem with it, too.

Also the soundness issues later in life. The once really nice ‘wp’ horse we have at our barn had to be retired half way through his life because of navicular. No horse should have to live with something like that just for a year or two in the limelight.

I also wish the horses were able to move forward with more purpose and not have such a dead expression in their eyes. It wasn’t until I started riding English (Dressage, huntseat) did I learn how important it was to have a horse that is not only relaxed but also has the desire to be in-front of the leg.

“Some would say the same about western dressage as well.”

Western dressage is for people too afraid to ride actual dressage. Not that I blame them too much. I’ve never fallen off riding western, but I’ve fallen off three times in a dressage saddle, so…

[ChasPonyCat]

[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8635816]

Western dressage is for people too afraid to ride actual dressage. Not that I blame them too much. I’ve never fallen off riding western, but I’ve fallen off three times in a dressage saddle, so…[/QUOTE]

Um, what?

Sorry, but that seems a bit rude. Maybe it’s people who ride Western and are excited to brach out a bit, or people who used to ride English but switched for whatever reason but still wish to school and show incorporating dressage principles.

I understand Western dressage has come under numerous criticisms, and its fine if it’s not your cup of tea
But, you know, feel free to make assumptions.

[ChasPonyCat]

[QUOTE=Aces N Eights;8635722]
The whole idea of the ranch classes in the AQHA is dumbed down. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad the pendulum is swinging the other way, but its for the wrong reasons from my point of view. AQHA has been about the $$$ not bettering the breed. I feel with the coming of the “ranch” classes has been a way for them to cash in on the ranch horse fad. Maybe I am looking at it wrong but I agree with those who said it created a niche for the horses that can’t compete with those super slow western pleasure horses, whether it be correct or not, or the reiners that cant make the cut, whatever. Some would say the same about western dressage as well. Just curious as to how many horses that compete in the ranch horse classes actually are ranch horses and not just go to the occasional branding or ship calves at the neighbors?[/QUOTE]

Valid point about ranch classes likely containing horses that aren’t actually “ranch” horses, but then again the show ring version of many disciplines has branched out from its origins quite a bit so that in itself isn’t necessarily problematic IMO.

[Aces_N_Eights]

[QUOTE=ChasPonyCat;8635871]
Valid point about ranch classes likely containing horses that aren’t actually “ranch” horses, but then again the show ring version of many disciplines has branched out from its origins quite a bit so that in itself isn’t necessarily problematic IMO.[/QUOTE]

Exactly the point I made above my last comment. I used WP and Halter as the most obvious classes, they do not resemble what they were meant to showcase years ago. I’d hardly say that the modern halter horse is the AQHA breed ideal.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=RodeoFTW;8635816]

Western dressage is for people too afraid to ride actual dressage. Not that I blame them too much. I’ve never fallen off riding western, but I’ve fallen off three times in a dressage saddle, so…[/QUOTE]

Oh, how cute. It’s been a while since we’ve had a dressage snob in here. Brings back memories.

[RodeoFTW]

[QUOTE=ChasPonyCat;8635866]
Um, what?

Sorry, but that seems a bit rude. Maybe it’s people who ride Western and are excited to brach out a bit, or people who used to ride English but switched for whatever reason but still wish to school and show incorporating dressage principles.

I understand Western dressage has come under numerous criticisms, and its fine if it’s not your cup of tea
But, you know, feel free to make assumptions.[/QUOTE]

I just don’t understand why people would want to learn pretend dressage. I know that sounds snobby as hell, but ah well. If someone wants to incorporate more classical principals into their western horse, that’s cool and I’m 100% all about that but I think a lot of these people could do very well doing actual dressage instead of hiding behind a western saddle. It seems like a crutch to me.

And it’s not an assumption. I have a background in both kinds of riding. Before I got into an English saddle, I was basically doing this brand new ‘western dressage’ thing for years.