Due to one of my horses having severe thrush (getting it under control now), I ended up reading a fantastic article by Pete Ramey and in turn found the Hoof Rehab Help group on Facebook. His suggestion of using CalTrace Plus to improve hoof and overall health led me to ask the question: can this product be used with a grain or ration balancer. The overall answer was “no” (which makes sense), but the majority of posters suggested switching to a forage based diet altogether. ***Please note: the horse with thrush has nothing to do with my questions here…I have her on CalTrace Plus and will be using it with a small amount of Timothy pellets instead of giving her a RB as she has no issues with weight.
The main horse in question at this time is my 18 year old mustang, Knight, with COPD. He went from being an easy keeper to being a hard keeper over the last year or two, and I have settled (within the last 6 months) on Triple Crown Senior for him. As you know, it is both beet pulp based AND grain-free: win/win. I feed him the recommended 6 pounds a day (I split into three meals, one of which includes soaked beet pulp and his supplements). His weight is back to where I want it and his feet are fabulous (he’s always had great feet). Overall, I would say he is in good health.
As I said, many of the replies to my Hoof Rehab Help post said to go with a forage based diet as “grain” can cause health problems. One of my big questions here (I didn’t think to ask this on the post before it was too late): why would I take my horses, that are eating and seemingly doing well on “grain-free” TC Senior, off of it?
During my research into going with a forage based diet I came upon another article (https://theequinepractice.com/why-ho…-be-fed-grain/), which also makes sense to me. His analogy about the donut was one of the key points that got me thinking: is there something in the grains (I previously used a number of different mixed grains through the years) AND the TC senior that I have been feeding Knight that is triggering him, or, at least, NOT helping by increasing inflammation? Soybean, for instance. What if that is causing inflammation in Knight and I have unknowingly been “feeding” his health issues?
Of the health benefits cited for going forage based, inflammation is one of them. That is the main reason that I am going to at least give it a try. None of my horses exhibit behavior that makes me think they have ulcers or hind-gut ulcers (another big reason people ditch the grain). But having a young OTTB, that is another thing worth considering. These questions are mainly because I want other’s feedback on the idea of grain-free or forage-based diets (which evidently are two different things).
FEEDING:
A few of the commenters on my HRH post gave me the feed plan they use and I am going to use them as a guideline for getting started. I still need to do some tweaking to adjust it for Knight (he is approximately 900 pounds), but here was one of the feed plans.
Fed twice daily and soaked:
3 qts beet pulp (pellets I assume)
3 qts Timothy pellets
2 cups CoolStance Copra
1/2 cup flax
1 tbsp. plain white salt
2 ounces CalTrace Plus
To me, the beet pulp seems high. I’m guessing 3 qts would end up around 3 pounds dry weight (guesstimate based on my TC senior coming in just under the 2 qt line at 3 pounds, and the big pellets not being as weight dense). That would make roughly 6 pounds of beet pulp daily. (Edit to add I was way off with that weight comparison :lol: TC Senior actually comes in a little lighter than the beet pulp pellets!) The recommended amount is between 0.05% to 0.2% of body weight, which would suggest 1/2 to 1 3/4 pounds dry weight. I currently give him roughly 3/4 pound daily (not including the beet pulp already in TC senior).
What are the pros and cons to Alfalfa pellets versus Timothy pellets? I heard them both being suggested by some, and one or the other suggested by some, so I bought a bag of each. I see the Alfalfa is higher in protein but lower in fiber than the Timothy. Would it make sense to do a combination, or stick with one? Do you generally go by what your horse prefers and adjust from there?
What you need to do is look at the guaranteed nutrition in your bagged feeds. The problem with feeding a complete vitamin mineral supplement with a fortified feed is that you risk overdosing some of the vitamins and minerals especially selenium.
You feed only one of these for optimum nutrition along with adequate good quality hay or forage replacement
A ration balancer pellets fed to recommended levels (usually about a pound)
A fortified feed fed to recommended levels (often at least 4 or 5 pounds)
A complete vitamin mineral in a carrier such as a small beet pulp or hay cube mash.
If the horse has problems with sugar then the VMS in a beep or hay cube mash is safest, followed by ration balancer. Many feeds fed at recommended levels will be too much sugar for a metabolically compromised horse. On the other hand hard body athletic horses in work, say a TB jumper, can burn off calories and do best on a lot of bagged feed.
As far as cubes or beet pulp yes they do expand s lot when mashed. I weigh dry but have never bothered to weigh wet.
Alfalfa has higher protein higher calories and usually less sugar than grass hay whether it’s cubes or bales. It is an excellent addition to the diet of any horse that needs extra nutrition. I personally would feed it as hay to a horse that could eat hay, cheaper easier and more chew time than cubes.
Beet pulp falls between hay and grain in terms of calories and NSC. But important it is digested in the hindgut like hay is, which is healthier for how horses digestion is designed.
As you seem to be swimming in unconnected data may I suggest yet another resource, Julie Gettys book Feed Your Horse Like a Horse. It’s very basic, easy to use, and consistent with current best practices for horse care.
@aknightstale - forage is hay and grass. I guarantee you are already feeding a “forage based diet” if your horse is eating 15ish or more pounds of grass and hay a day. You top all that forage off with a commercial feed product to add calories and supplement any nutritional deficiencies.
Don’t get too sucked into the spreadsheets etc. TC Senior is a fantastic product backed by decades of research by equine nutritionists. Before you go changing up your horse’s diet based on Facebook, read through the TC website. The information there is great. And the TC people have degrees and are well educated in equine nutrition. They are professionals. The people who are telling you what to feed on FB are hobbyists.
While there is some great information on that FB group, there are also a lot of (vocal) proponents of certain products or methodologies. The fact that they are seeming to equate “forage-based” with no grain makes me wonder. Most horses are already on forage based diets, with the bulk of the diet coming from hay or grazing.
3 quarts of beet pulp is a lot if you are talking about the pellets
Forage would include the beet pulp, wetted pellets or shreds, mentioned above. Alfalfa pettets, and various hay cubes, alfalfa, timothy, mixed alfalfa-timothy, other grass types made into pellets or cubes. Pretty much all the plant based feeds.
I would agree and disagree with you there. Article I noted is a veterinarian. People trying and testing what works on their horses, getting feedback from vets and farriers also says something. At the end of the day, I’m more interested in what individuals who pay attention to their horses say. Feed companies want to sell their products. People don’t. I DO want to be careful not to just simply change diet because a group of people think feeding grain is wrong. But I also am not going to simply dismiss it.
I do believe TC Senior is a good product which is why I’m keeping my OTTB on it, who has no issues with it. But my mustang has COPD and am wondering if sticking to only forage based feed (pellets, cubes) to mix with his supplements could make a positive difference with inflammation.
Thank you, I do need to buy that book (I’ve read a couple articles of hers but mostly with various supplements).
Yes, I did figure out determining whether to go with a complete feed, ration balancer or the complete vitamin mineral (in this case I am starting California Trace).
I guess what I was trying to get at (and nobody has actually touched on it), could dropping the TC Senior help me to figure out if Knight does in fact have a negative reaction to something in the product. I was also hoping someone might have an idea as to why TC senior might not considered okay for a “forage based diet”.
It seems everything is going in circles though, so I guess I’ll keep muddling through on my own…and get the book by Julie Getty
I am also a member of the HRH group and I agree, there is some great information there, but I roll my eyes sometimes when certain posters post. I stick around though because there is a lot to learn there, especially since I started trimming mine myself. I have also gone down the nutrition rabbit hole as far as how it affects hoof health too and have driven myself a little bit crazy. I have recently switched from Blue Seal Sentinel LS and beet pulp to TC Senior and soaked timothy pellets to lower NSC as my old man is starting to get a bit of a cresty neck. He’s also having a harder time building sole than my other 2.
I look at it this way… if your horse has a problem with soy, alfalfa etc… don’t feed it to them. If they don’t have a problem with them, they are a great source of low starch/sugar calories. Soy and alfalfa are not the devil as some on there would tell you. Or grass, or 24/7 turnout… that’s another one that gets bashed on there.
Is the old horse eating hay at all? Is he on a meal replacement with the TC senior,? I thought I read he couldn’t chew but then I looked back and it doesn’t say this.
If he’s eating ok the basis of his diet should be really good hay, good grass hay plus alfalfa, as much as he can eat. That’s cheaper easier and more chew time than feeding pounds and pounds of soaked hay cubes and beet pulp. Then he can get the full serving of his bagged feed or a mash with VMS and other supplements in it.
If he’s not chewing well it’s a whole other ball game and forage first takes a back seat to geriatric nutrition.
Hay cubes and beet pulp are forage replacement but have much less chew time.
Julie Gettys book is good. It’s like a textbook, it was the recommended reading when I took a Coursera on horse nutrition several years ago. I don’t love all her online articles, she jumps on some bandwagons and may have a supplement line for sale.
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The OP is referencing what I told her I feed my two large, in active work hard keepers (as I mentioned in the FB post).
3 quarts of beet pulp shreds (dry measure, which I did specify) is nowhere close to 3lbs. (But, I didn’t specify that I fed shreds and not pellets.)
Triple Crown Senior, which I used to feed, is not grain-free. (Wheat middlings, distillers dried grains, rice bran)
Forage-based does indeed mean pasture, hay and other forage products like beet pulp, and this type of diet is recommended based on what horses have naturally evolved to eat. Pete Ramey, Eleanor Kellon VMD, and others point to the negative effects of carbohydrates as it relates to hoof and overall horse health.
My own experience has been that removing as many carbs as possible from the diet while providing minerals balanced to the hay, pasture and other forage products fed is a huge boost to good health and hoof function.
:yes:
I really, really suggest weighing your feed and testing your forage to get a complete picture of what your horse is eating. Horses are “forage based” but quite a few wild horses are undernourished and quite a few pasture horses are also because the forage/pasture isn’t giving complete nutrition. Those feral horses on a poor diet just don’t thrive as much as horses on a good diet.
You can do the analysis yourself or pay someone to do it for you. I’ve done it myself and used EquiAnalytica to analyze my pasture and my local extension to analyze my hay and soil. Equine nutritional recommendations are available online. Again, hire a nutritionist to really look at what you need.
I am a member of the Hoof Rehab group and I also actually saw the Equine Practice vet mentioned above. So, I’ve been down both of those roads. For what it’s worth, here are my thoughts on those trains of thought.
I tried the No Grain Challenge because I have a horse with anhidrosis, and supposedly people had good results with removing grains. I thought I got some improvement from removing grains, but it was incomplete and my horse lost condition in the process. I had almost complete relief with adding Platinum Refresh to a regular diet.
After that I did the hoof rehab diet, including beet pulp, Timothy pellets, and California Trace Plus. My younger horse did fine, but my older horse again lost condition. I think my older guy needs more protein than that diet provides. My older guy is currently eating Timothy Balance cubes, flax, and TC 30% and he looks great.
My younger horse is in work and needs more calories, so he gets alfalfa cubes, flax, TC 30%, and 2 pounds of TC Sr daily. He also looks great.
My advice is to feed the horse in front of you. If your horse looks good then he probably feels good too. I also feel like I do not have the knowledge to cobble together a balanced diet. A veterinary nutritionist has way more knowledge than I do, so odds of a good diet are better in a feed program that has some actual science behind it. Also, on a purely practical and somewhat lazy note, soaking beet pulp, soaking pellets or cubes, adding vitamin/mineral, etc., just got to be ridiculously complicated. It was also expensive.
I am only feeding the hay cubes to provide a bolus of wet food - not for forage. I only do this during the winter, as our weather goes up and down a lot and colic is always a big worry this time of year.
I should also say that my old guy’s feet have actually improved since coming off of the all forage diet with CT Plus and going to a ration balancer. Again, I think that he needs more protein than the previous diet afforded him (he is 19).
In short, I don’t think a low starch/sugar processed feed is a problem - in fact, for many horses it is the ideal feed. To provide extra protein with the all forage diet it was suggested that I add whey protein or peas, and that was just one step too many for me. Also, as I said, I worried about a diet that was internet information based versus one that had been formulated by people with an actual education in horse nutrition. Just my two cents.
I liked both your posts. You can always call or email Triple Crown with questions if you don’t find the information you need on their website. They are a wonderful resource; real people with real credentials.
Forage first is the standard good practices these days but it doesn’t mean only forage. It does mean to make good hay the basis of the horses diet, make sure there is good VMS in some delivery form, and add concentrate as needed.
Our horses have been doing well on good Timothy and alfalfa as needed, and then a small mash of beet pulp to carry a very good VMS. My mare also gets a cup of whole flax, a pound of oats and a handful of alfalfa cubes for flavor.
We have limited choice of feeds where I live, only two local mills, and the mixed feeds are expensive relative to whole oats or beet pulp. I like my mash because I can add or decrease the whole oats based on workload without affecting the VMS.
But it’s important to start with very good hay. If the horse is a hard keeper then free choice. Easy keeper, weigh it and feed at intervals or in bags.
“No” is not a valid answer without context of how much “grain” or balancer is fed, and what the forage analysis is like. I know MANY people who feed a half serving of CaT to boost the copper and zinc in the diet, even though they are already feeding either 1lb of a balancer, or around a minimally recommended amount of a regular feed (what they are calling “grain”).
but the majority of posters suggested switching to a forage based diet altogether.
I hate this term. It’s become a designer term that makes it seem like we’ve been feeding horses all wrong. If a 1000lb horse is eating 25lb of hay, and 5lb of a commercial feed (ie “grain”), he’s ALREADY eating a forage-based diet. And if he’s eating a feed that’s also forage-based, well…
The main horse in question at this time is my 18 year old mustang, Knight, with COPD. He went from being an easy keeper to being a hard keeper over the last year or two, and I have settled (within the last 6 months) on Triple Crown Senior for him. As you know, it is both beet pulp based AND grain-free: win/win. I feed him the recommended 6 pounds a day (I split into three meals, one of which includes soaked beet pulp and his supplements). His weight is back to where I want it and his feet are fabulous (he’s always had great feet). Overall, I would say he is in good health.
As I said, many of the replies to my Hoof Rehab Help post said to go with a forage based diet as “grain” can cause health problems. One of my big questions here (I didn’t think to ask this on the post before it was too late): why would I take my horses, that are eating and seemingly doing well on “grain-free” TC Senior, off of it?
You wouldn’t. I also hate when people use the term “grain” without qualifying it that. Cereal grains? I agree, few horses need any, let alone lots of those. Commercial feed? Then we have to talk ingredients and GA.
During my research into going with a forage based diet I came upon another article (https://theequinepractice.com/why-ho…-be-fed-grain/), which also makes sense to me. His analogy about the donut was one of the key points that got me thinking: is there something in the grains (I previously used a number of different mixed grains through the years) AND the TC senior that I have been feeding Knight that is triggering him, or, at least, NOT helping by increasing inflammation? Soybean, for instance. What if that is causing inflammation in Knight and I have unknowingly been “feeding” his health issues?
I hate that article as well. I hate that whole site. It lumps all cereal grains into a single bucket, and lumps all horses into a single bucket. No, most horses don’t need cereal grains. In smaller amounts it also doesn’t harm them. The harder working horses NEED some of those extra carbs.
“Today we have several diseases with names that roll off the tongue of horse owners everywhere: insulin resistance, metabolic disease, obesity, body condition score of 8 or 9, Cushing’s, and of course lameness secondary to chronic lack of protein and excessive weight. These were not diseases that existed in veterinary text books in the 70’s and even early 80’s.”
Just because they might not have had a name doesn’t mean they didn’t exist.
Of the health benefits cited for going forage based, inflammation is one of them. That is the main reason that I am going to at least give it a try. None of my horses exhibit behavior that makes me think they have ulcers or hind-gut ulcers (another big reason people ditch the grain). But having a young OTTB, that is another thing worth considering. These questions are mainly because I want other’s feedback on the idea of grain-free or forage-based diets (which evidently are two different things).
Yes, 2 different things. But that’s also not the whole story.
FEEDING:
A few of the commenters on my HRH post gave me the feed plan they use and I am going to use them as a guideline for getting started. I still need to do some tweaking to adjust it for Knight (he is approximately 900 pounds), but here was one of the feed plans.
Fed twice daily and soaked:
3 qts beet pulp (pellets I assume)
3 qts Timothy pellets
2 cups CoolStance Copra
1/2 cup flax
1 tbsp. plain white salt
2 ounces CalTrace Plus
To me, the beet pulp seems high. I’m guessing 3 qts would end up around 3 pounds dry weight (guesstimate based on my TC senior coming in just under the 2 qt line at 3 pounds, and the big pellets not being as weight dense).
This is why you have to feed by weight, not volume. Beet pulp shreds are REALLY light - around 9 cups per pound.
Or, to convert to quarts, which is how most commercial feeds give their weights, that’s 2.25 quarts for 1lb, or .44lb per quart. TC Sr is 1.08lb per quart. See why you cannot make any assumptions based on volume? There are some feeds that are as light as .85lb/quart, and some that are closer to 1.5lb/qt.
The recommended amount is between 0.05% to 0.2% of body weight, which would suggest 1/2 to 1 3/4 pounds dry weight. I currently give him roughly 3/4 pound daily (not including the beet pulp already in TC senior).
Recommended amount of what, beet pulp? There is no such thing, other than in someone’s belief. The only formal recommendation is no more than 40% of their forage requirements, maybe 50%, and even then that shouldn’t be used long-term. That’s for hay shortage situations. Beet pulp simply does not have the nutritional profile that grasses do. You don’t even NEED beet pulp in a forage-based meal. But it does have value in some situations - high calcium, which is great if your grass/hay is low, and is very easily digested and sets up a healthier hind gut. In what amount? I don’t know that that’s studied.
What are the pros and cons to Alfalfa pellets versus Timothy pellets? I heard them both being suggested by some, and one or the other suggested by some, so I bought a bag of each. I see the Alfalfa is higher in protein but lower in fiber than the Timothy. Would it make sense to do a combination, or stick with one? Do you generally go by what your horse prefers and adjust from there?
Need more calories? Need more protein? What does the horse like? Need to use something to manage an ulcer-prone horse? The fiber content of any feedstuff is irrelevant if the horse is eating enough hay/grass.
Dropping ANYthing has the potential to help determine if it’s causing a problem. TC Sr has soy in it. If a horse is going to have an issue, it would most likely be related to the soy. It has wheat middlings, and while not very common at all, if he’s allergic to wheat, that’s a potential issue. There is no corn in any TC product - even the distillers grains are not corn-based.
]I was also hoping someone might have an idea as to why TC senior might not considered okay for a “forage based diet”.
Because certain people are rabidly anti-commercial feed, often because they are rabidly anti-soy, sometimes because they think commercial feeds contain fillers (some do, ie peanut hulls, stay away), often because they have no idea what a “filler” is, often because they think if it’s not a “whole food” it’s filler :rolleyes: There are no fillers in TC products. Everything is not only edible, but digestible (unlike peanut hulls which are edible but not digestible, aka filler), and everything has nutritional value.
Wheat middlings have such a bad rep for invalid reasons. It is nothing like the original wheat, and is the best parts of that grain. High protein, moderate to low NSC, very digestible.
And many other brands are the same way.
It seems everything is going in circles though, so I guess I’ll keep muddling through on my own…and get the book by Julie Getty
Things go in circles when terms aren’t clearly defined, and actual reasons given. REAL reasons, not what someone believes.
None of those are anything like the whole grain. But if that’s your definition of “grain-free”, then that needs to be specified, because it’s certainly not everyone’s.
Forage-based does indeed mean pasture, hay and other forage products like beet pulp, and this type of diet is recommended based on what horses have naturally evolved to eat. Pete Ramey, Eleanor Kellon VMD, and others point to the negative effects of carbohydrates as it relates to hoof and overall horse health.
NONE of those guys are talking about the normal average healthy horse when they are talking about those negative effects. And the use of “carbohydrates” is also ridiculous - there’s WAY more carbs ingested on that forage than in a few pounds of even a high NSC feed. Carbs are a requirement for life.
Again, people MUST get specific about the definitions. Dr Kellon does NOT advocate all horses be on a diet like this.
My own experience has been that removing as many carbs as possible from the diet while providing minerals balanced to the hay, pasture and other forage products fed is a huge boost to good health and hoof function.
Remove things that are not needed, absolutely. Balance the diet as best you can, 100% agree. Got a feed that’s 20% NSC but you’re only feeding 4lb? Unless you’ve got a really metabolic horse, not a big deal at all. A diet too high in iron and way too low in copper is much more of a problem.
ut too many people take a good thing and take it to the extreme, which is confusing, not necessary, and because too many people are using generic terms while explaining things to people who know nothing (or not nearly enough), it’s often implemented very badly, and makes things WAY more complicated than they need to be, as attested to by just this thread.
Not surprised that there are several hoof rehab group people on COTH as well.
It is a really valuable resource. It can also be a bit myopic. Every single hoof pathology is immediately met with “drop all grain, remove from pasture, test hay, feed Cal trace, and the add rinsed BP or Alfalfa cubes to make up the calorie difference”. If I had a horse founder or one who was metabolic, I see a lot of value in taking a very rigid approach to care. However, there are tens of thousands of top performance horses eating large quantities of commercial grain, grazing on lush pastures, and have zero hoof issues. Often times problem hooves just need better care.
I’m treating seedy toes at the moment. I know that if I posted I would get slammed with the same rigid parameters for diet. However, it is pretty clear that this pony needs her toes taken waaaaay back. So, I’m going to address that first with a good farrier and then go from there. No need to change 20 things at once.
I think TC senior is a really quality feed. Perhaps your hard keeping 18 year old would do better on Cal trace and beet pulp only. I wouldn’t expect to see a big difference but every horse is different. Personally, for an easy keeper I would definitely wait until late spring to experiment with something that is going to be cutting calories.
